dependent origination

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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fuki
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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Sun May 19, 2019 1:02 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:10 am

So this text starts with ignorance, and upon that volitional impulses, upon that arises Sensual consciousness.... etc.... until....consciousnesses of becoming (craving) upon that a consciousness of birth
In other words the cause of ignorance is dependence, and independence the remedy.
The humorous irony here (but not humorous for the suffering) is that many depend on a teacher first until their practise makes them fully idenpendent and "realization" occurs from ones own understanding.
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Great Sage EofH
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 am

fuki wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:02 am
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:10 am

So this text starts with ignorance, and upon that volitional impulses, upon that arises Sensual consciousness.... etc.... until....consciousnesses of becoming (craving) upon that a consciousness of birth
In other words the cause of ignorance is dependence, and independence the remedy.
The humorous irony here (but not humorous for the suffering) is that many depend on a teacher first until their practise makes them fully idenpendent and "realization" occurs from ones own understanding.
All the Zen teachers I have known are hard to love or rely too much on. Maybe they had a "softie" LOL One guy simply told me to "Become an Island." That lesson took about ten years! One must be soft and compassionate with children and animals however, or those who are oppressed, traumatized, or otherwise beaten senseless by life.
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Spike » Sun May 19, 2019 1:23 am

Last two posts: right on.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun May 19, 2019 1:36 am

fuki wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:02 am
In other words the cause of ignorance is dependence, and independence the remedy.
The humorous irony here (but not humorous for the suffering) is that many depend on a teacher first until their practise makes them fully idenpendent and "realization" occurs from ones own understanding.

I think maybe there's a difference between making someone rely on a "crutch" - and using a teaching model as what the education genius Vygotsky calls "scaffolding" e.g., building conscious understanding, and direction around, what the learner is learning on their own.
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fuki
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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Sun May 19, 2019 7:25 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 am

All the Zen teachers I have known are hard to love or rely too much on. Maybe they had a "softie" LOL One guy simply told me to "Become an Island." That lesson took about ten years! One must be soft and compassionate with children and animals however, or those who are oppressed, traumatized, or otherwise beaten senseless by life.
Great, a good teacher should never be an object of attachment or dependency (Faith is something else)
but it still happens depending on the individuals psyche, I remember I had that need, perhaps besides a teacher I was looking more for a type (kind) of father figure. Do isn't a linear thingy, it's like "all over/under the place" not the right words but you'll get it.
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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Sun May 19, 2019 5:00 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:56 am
okay i gotta go read this ---> https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html
Thank you for the link. I believe this makes the point, perhaps more clearly, that I was making:
The Pali texts present dependent arising in a double form. It appears both as an abstract statement of universal law and as the particular application of that law to the specific problem which is the doctrine's focal concern, namely, the problem of suffering. In its abstract form the principle of dependent arising is equivalent to the law of the conditioned genesis of phenomena. It expresses the invariable concomitance between the arising and ceasing of any given phenomenon and the functional efficacy of its originative conditions. Its phrasing, as terse as any formulation of modern logic, recurs in the ancient texts thus: "This being, that exists; through the arising of this that arises. This not being, that does not exist; through the ceasing of this that ceases."

When applied to the problem of suffering, the abstract principle becomes encapsulated in a twelve-term formula disclosing the causal nexus responsible for the origination of suffering.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm

Also, regardless of which sutta or translation, the text seems to imply that each term (of the twelve terms) is a condition precedent, not a cause.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Sun May 19, 2019 7:47 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm
Also, regardless of which sutta or translation, the text seems to imply that each term (of the twelve terms) is a condition precedent, not a cause.
When causes and conditions meet things appear, there are no causes without conditions and vice versa, in fact the differentiation in itself is a mental construct and has nothing to do with reality. The way we explain things (or the sutta) ofcourse is also due to meeting of causes and conditions, in the 'end' whatever appears (or seems to appear) is a modification of consciousness. We have different terms to differentiate due to the constructs of our brain, a way to navigate the objective world and to communicate. DO is nice way of explaining things within this 3-D construct, however the natural illumination of Mind is not dependend and beyond the workings of causes and conditions.
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Crystal » Sun May 19, 2019 8:11 pm

Hello friends, I wonder if this explanation might be of any interest:

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... nation.pdf

and also this 24 minute talk:

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... Samuppada)


_/|\_

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Sun May 19, 2019 9:07 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 7:47 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm
Also, regardless of which sutta or translation, the text seems to imply that each term (of the twelve terms) is a condition precedent, not a cause.
When causes and conditions meet things appear, there are no causes without conditions and vice versa, in fact the differentiation in itself is a mental construct and has nothing to do with reality. The way we explain things (or the sutta) ofcourse is also due to meeting of causes and conditions, in the 'end' whatever appears (or seems to appear) is a modification of consciousness. We have different terms to differentiate due to the constructs of our brain, a way to navigate the objective world and to communicate. DO is nice way of explaining things within this 3-D construct, however the natural illumination of Mind is not dependend and beyond the workings of causes and conditions.
Yes, of course, “in fact the differentiation in itself is a mental construct and has nothing to do with reality”. You could just as well written, “in fact ANY differentiation in itself is a mental construct” and your differentiation of “nothing to do with reality” (“the objective world”?) and reality is another mental construction.

But using our discriminating mind in relation to the relative world where differentiation appears, there is a difference between cause and conditions. For example, water is a condition precedent, but not the cause of rain. (Or the existence of cats and dogs is a condition precedent, but not the cause of ‘raining cats and dogs’.)
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Sun May 19, 2019 9:08 pm

Also, the Buddha spoke of DO (the 12 term version) in both the usual way (from ignorance to suffering) and he sometimes spoke of DO in the opposite direction (from suffering to awakening). But DO is often taught as a cycle,. Did the Buddha ever speak of DO as a cycle and if so, what is the sutta reference?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Sun May 19, 2019 9:21 pm

Crystal wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:11 pm
Hello friends, I wonder if this explanation might be of any interest:

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... nation.pdf

and also this 24 minute talk:

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... Samuppada)


_/|\_
Crystal; Thank you for the links.

I read the first two dozen pages and skimmed the rest. It seems Buddhadasa's main points are: DO is an explanation of the arising of suffering, that understanding it and putting it into practice leads to the end of suffering, and that the “three lifetimes” explanation of DO is wrong.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by lindama » Mon May 20, 2019 1:57 am

In all my years in zen, I have never heard anyone refer to this. ofc, I know what it is, Jung might say it's about synchronicity, but don't quote me. there is simultaneity in things. and bees arise around flowers.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 20, 2019 3:34 am

Dear Clyde, et al.,
clyde wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:30 pm
Dependent origination (or dependent co-arising) is a fundamental Buddhist doctrine and also the most complicated, so it seems like an anomaly to me. The teaching in the Pali suttas is paticca samuppada (pratityasmutpada in Sanskrit).
Clyde, fundamental and yet complicated should not be anomalous, I wouldn't have thought. It's up ("down", some say: eh, Larry?!) to one's actual "mentality", at the moment of consideration. No small potatoes, this/that, though.

Consider, alternatively!, say, umm-m, General Relativity, or even Special Relativity. Fundamental, yes: "Complicated", yes, but if you are a Brother, why, you "get" it (them). (not a great (!) analogy, as one is intellectual, with moving-mind, mind moving. The other, in Awakened condition...IS NOT).

Now, hetu pratyaya, if you have direct experience of it, ...well, easy-peazy, only natural, and no need for interpreters; why, you yourself may serve as an interpreter (but to minimal effect).

If not (experienced, yet), then it's gonna take tons of dicey translation, and even that will not "do it", for one. How could it... .

All of "Buddhism" is available by experience. Not otherwise!

Somebody else's (true) Wisdom is not one's own. One's own is available with proper practice to ...bring it out.

I'm not saying anything gnu, ;)

--Joe

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Mon May 20, 2019 4:23 am

lindama wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:57 am
In all my years in zen, I have never heard anyone refer to this. ofc, I know what it is, Jung might say it's about synchronicity, but don't quote me. there is simultaneity in things. and bees arise around flowers.
Yes, that is my experience too regarding Zen and dependent origination. I didn’t and still don’t hear about it in most Zen teachings, but when I started to study Buddhism (the basis of Zen Buddhism) and reading some of the suttas, I became aware of this Buddhist teaching.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Mon May 20, 2019 4:27 am

Joe, I found Buddhist teachings to be simple and profound. For example, the Four Noble Truths and the Three Marks of Existence are profound teachings and difficult to realize, but they are simple straightforward statements. In comparison, dependent origination with its twelve terms and the relation of each term to the next is complicated. So in that way, that dependent origination is complicated while the other teachings are simple, it seems like an anomaly.

And “Now, hetu pratyaya”! I had to google that term, only to learn that there are four types of causation in Buddhism! I’ve not studied that aspect of Buddhism at all.
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:34 am
All of "Buddhism" is available by experience. Not otherwise!
:bow2:
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon May 20, 2019 5:22 am

clyde wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:55 pm
Also, regardless of which sutta or translation, the text seems to imply that each term (of the twelve terms) is a condition precedent, not a cause.
Thanisarro translates it as "requistite condition" - basically what you're saying
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon May 20, 2019 5:42 am

it's not anomalous to me, one of the first Pali text problems I ended up with was the 37 Dhamma of Enlightenment: the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna, the 4 Efforts, 4 Bases, 5 Faculties, 5 Powers, 7 Factors, and the 8 Path Factors. Sort of ackward dealing with 37 Dhamma like this. I can't even remember why now
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Re: dependent origination

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am

I am on the side of that we should read this complicated texts, sutras etc or any other enlightened masters' words after reaching enlightenment.

That it is clear that they could only be understood fully only then.
cooper

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Larry » Mon May 20, 2019 9:40 am

lindama wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:57 am
Jung might say it's about synchronicity, but don't quote me. there is simultaneity in things.
The Yang in the Yin.

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