dependent origination

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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Larry
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Larry » Mon May 20, 2019 9:46 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:34 am
It's up ("down", some say: eh, Larry?!) to one's actual "mentality"
Even further down in Australia :D

Seeker242
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Seeker242 » Mon May 20, 2019 11:18 am

clyde wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:30 pm

Still, I wonder if and how others understand this doctrine.
"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play"

Just a chain of particular events where one thing leads to another.

And because of that:

Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a non-empty thing
Does not exist.


AKA "all 5 skandhas are empty" as the heart sutra states. Dependently arisen= Sunyata.

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fuki
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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Mon May 20, 2019 12:01 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am
I am on the side of that we should read this complicated texts, sutras etc or any other enlightened masters' words after reaching enlightenment.

That it is clear that they could only be understood fully only then.
Reading texts to try to understand them isn't a service to the sutras/texts anyway, nevertheless they can be of service to your quote "intuitive mind"
Texts which I completely misunderstood 20 years ago where still transformative because they either completely cutt of all unnatural thinking or they done away with certain habits and motivated 'meditation'
"Back in the days" I used to read 1 or 2 texts for years, never really trying to understand them everytime they lit a spark and were of service in a myriad of ways, I do agree that reading many texts and books in a row is kind of useless, those folks are merely hungry for wordly knowledge (thought to be "spiritual"), which can also be of service in relation to wordly things and people but not for self-inquiry. The balance between reading and dhyana ofcourse can be different depending on the individuals needs, just sharing it from this corner of imagination.
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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Mon May 20, 2019 4:58 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:34 am

I'm not saying anything gnu, ;)

gnu?
[SPOILER]
Gnoe_06.jpg
Gnoe_06.jpg (764.02 KiB) Viewed 331 times
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Re: dependent origination

Post by [james] » Mon May 20, 2019 5:16 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 4:58 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:34 am

I'm not saying anything gnu, ;)

gnu?
[SPOILER]
0AC29FF9-F831-4ADE-BF7B-6AC15D09357B.jpeg
0AC29FF9-F831-4ADE-BF7B-6AC15D09357B.jpeg (316.39 KiB) Viewed 327 times

Spike
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Spike » Mon May 20, 2019 5:43 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 11:18 am
clyde wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:30 pm

Still, I wonder if and how others understand this doctrine.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
Without knowing the explanation for this hypothesis, it could be argued that, at least in early human evolution, consciousness followed "six sense media", as Jaynes argued in his book, Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon May 20, 2019 5:45 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:01 pm
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am
I am on the side of that we should read this complicated texts, sutras etc or any other enlightened masters' words after reaching enlightenment.

That it is clear that they could only be understood fully only then.
they lit a spark and were of service in a myriad of ways
agree.
cooper

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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Mon May 20, 2019 6:23 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 11:18 am
clyde wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:30 pm

Still, I wonder if and how others understand this doctrine.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
Without knowing the explanation for this hypothesis, it could be argued that, at least in early human evolution, consciousness followed "six sense media", as Jaynes argued in his book, Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
Perhaps Gautama "2.0" can be of service :lol:
The Nature of Consciousness...

In the body the consciousness does the witnessing; the behavior is done by the three gunas. Consciousness is all-pervading, spacelike, without form. If one has an illness or a pain it is only a movement in consciousness, a disturbance in the balance of the five elements in the body.

It is because consciousness has identified itself with the body that the pain is felt in the consciousness. When there is complete disidentification with the body one can put his hand in the fire; the effect of the fire will be there but the pain will not be felt.

By nature, consciousness is pure but by identification with the body, it becomes polluted, conceptually. What is born is the waking and sleep states, the concept of time which go with them, and the consciousness. Once that consciousness is conscious of itself, then, because of conditioning by others, it identifies itself with certain items as its own, and with other items as not its own, and it will fight for and try to protect that which it considers its own.

When consciousness realizes its potential power, its universality, the 'me' and 'mine' concept is lost. That universal consciousness is known as God, the Almighty, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent... all the attributes. These attributes are given to God, the universal consciousness, not to the Absolute.

The Absolute is without attributes. Whatever natural experiences you encounter, just accept them, don't try to alter them, just take them as they come. Don't arrogate to yourself the doership of anything. It is all just happening. Nature will take its course. It is only to be observed and understood. Nothing is to be done. All manifestation is conceptual. The 'I amness', the primary concept, which has remained unchanged at all times, is the highest God as far as this manifestation is concerned. But it has come in with time and will go out with time.

Ultimately consciousness is temporary; your true reality is prior to the senses... spaceless, timeless, without attributes. Consciousness is a temporary condition which has come upon the total, timeless, spaceless, changeless state. It is a happening which has come and which will disappear. This psychosomatic bundle which is born will suffer or enjoy during its allotted span; so long as you know that you are not the one who experiences, but you are the knower, how are you concerned? You have been separate from this bundle from before conception, and you continue to be separate from it and will be separate from it after its death, and after the birth and death of any other concept that is projected in the consciousness. Time has brought all this about and time will end it. All you can say is that it has happened, it will continue for a while and then it will go away. That which was conceived and born is the same even now. That 'I' has not changed from the conception until the present moment. It has come for a particular length of time. What was conceived and born has grown physically, and some of the expressions of this knowledge 'I am' have achieved tremendous things. Some have become Avatars. But, at the end of the time span all the magnificent personalities and all they have achieved, have all disappeared. This 'I amness' may have remained existent for hundreds of years in some cases; still, however long the time, they all come to an end.

In your original state there is no awareness of awareness. As the Absolute you are infinite, timeless. As infinity you express yourself as space. As timelessness you express yourself as time. Unless there is space and time you cannot be conscious of yourself. When space and time are present there is consciousness. You descend into this consciousness and express yourself in manifold ways, in innumerable forms. In that total manifestation various phenomena come into being; but there is nothing separate.

When the universal consciousness manifests itself as a phenomenon, the phenomenon is that limited form which thinks that it is independent; but it is not. There is never an independent entity; there can be no separate individual. Eventually, the one who gets liberated is the consciousness...

Sri Nisargadatta maharaj.
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Spike » Mon May 20, 2019 7:01 pm

Thank you for the opinion from a Hindu perspective.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by clyde » Mon May 20, 2019 7:27 pm

Sri Nisargadatta seems obviously wrong about the following:

If reality is “spaceless, timeless, without attributes”, then the attributes “your” and “true” in “your true reality” are meaningless.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Seeker242 » Mon May 20, 2019 7:30 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:43 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 11:18 am
clyde wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:30 pm

Still, I wonder if and how others understand this doctrine.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
Without knowing the explanation for this hypothesis, it could be argued that, at least in early human evolution, consciousness followed "six sense media", as Jaynes argued in his book, Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.
I'm pretty sure Jaynes defines "consciousness" quite differently than what is meant by "Vijñāna"
Jaynes' definition of consciousness is synonymous with what philosophers call "meta-consciousness" or "meta-awareness", i.e., awareness of awareness, thoughts about thinking, desires about desires, beliefs about beliefs.
If that is accurate from wikipedia, that's not really the definition of Buddhist "Vijñāna". Buddhist "consciousness" is more like qualia rather than higher or self-awareness, etc.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Mon May 20, 2019 7:38 pm

clyde wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:27 pm
Sri Nisargadatta seems obviously wrong about the following:

If reality is “spaceless, timeless, without attributes”, then the attributes “your” and “true” in “your true reality” are meaningless.
Ofcourse he's wrong, so was Gautama!
I don't have to remind you that words are causes and conditions do I?
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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 20, 2019 10:06 pm

"Hindu", yes, Fuki.

Now, "Jerry", of the old US TV show series "Seinfeld", I'm told, would say, "Not that there's anything WRONG with that!"

Though, I too continue to "needle" you about it, and suppose I almost always will. :hatsoff:

;)

--Joe

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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 pm

Clyde, I've wondered and marveled about the origin of such disparities for decades.

The resolution is in the recognition of two points of view. One is "One Mind", a stopping point of Hindu practitioners ("Atman is Brahman").

The other is "No Mind", a non-stopping point of Zen Buddhist practitioners (given properly attentive teachers, and sufficient practice). "One Mind" is seen-through and gone through, to sudden awakening, as the Buddha's.

I think various other religions -- and cultic awarenesses -- were founded by people stopping at mere "One Mind". It becomes clear which ones.

--Joe
clyde wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:27 pm
Sri Nisargadatta seems obviously wrong about the following:

If reality is “spaceless, timeless, without attributes”, then the attributes “your” and “true” in “your true reality” are meaningless.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 pm

I think various other religions -- and cultic awarenesses -- were founded by people stopping at mere "One Mind". It becomes clear which ones.
This is mostly so, but if you can see outside of a religious framework many awakened beings weren't raised in a Buddhist culture, so they used words from a Hindu or Chrisitian or whatever framework since their "audience" needed words from that culture/religion. But generally I agree with you (when it comes to religion, monotheistic religions are a pest upon mankind, and most of the "Hindu" stuff isn't conducive, but most Buddhist stop at mere "One Mind" too, if they ever truly get there)

but I think it's funny to observe how "Buddhists" habitually react to Sri Niz, based on a few words.
99% of all the Buddhists teachers ever couldn't hold a lamp in his shadow. :hatsoff:
It's funny I've tested Sri Niz's words (slighty altered by me so they'd match the Buddhist framework) with some of the most respected Buddhist teachers in America and they'd praise them, when I showed them the original unedited words and mentioned they were from Sri Niz, then suddenly it was no good and "Hindu" comes to show the habitual tendencies, preconceptions and emotional churning conflicts of us all, hey ese it happens to the best of us ;) :hatsoff:
I wonder about the prerequisite condition of "that" :lol:
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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 21, 2019 12:10 am

fuki wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 pm
I think various other religions -- and cultic awarenesses -- were founded by people stopping at mere "One Mind". It becomes clear which ones.
This is mostly so, but if you can see outside of a religious framework many awakened beings weren't raised in a Buddhist culture, so they used words from a Hindu or Chrisitian or whatever framework since their "audience" needed words from that culture/religion. But generally I agree with you (when it comes to religion, monotheistic religions are a pest upon mankind, and most of the "Hindu" stuff isn't conducive, but most Buddhist stop at mere "One Mind" too, if they ever truly get there)
Fuki, it's true of course that founders of most other religions were not in touch with Buddhist teachings, and so they had no notion that there is something inside the "One Mind", and "Oneness-of-All" that they evidently had experienced. There's definitely no blame, and no dishonor upon them.

But, we need not follow them.

I think too that what you say about Buddhists, and Buddhist teachers, in view of the Hindu teacher you choose to comment about, is really apples and oranges. Especially Ch'an and Zen Buddhist teachers. The point of greatest importance is this: does one know Emptiness and no-mind from experience? If not, then other sorts of "spiritual accomplishment" do not register on the Richter Scale of Buddha Shakyamuni nor his successors, in various and multifarious Buddhist sects or schools following 500 B.C., or so.

This is not a slight against any Hindu. It's just that One Mind is not No Mind. The practice traditions and understandings are disparate.

To know Buddhist teachers -- Zen Buddhist teachers, say -- you must actually KNOW them, Marcel. Work; practice; and study, with them. A recorded talk or book does not count. ;) I'd say this is probably true for "knowing" Hindu teachers, too: a few aphorisms or paragraphs we feel we agree with is not enough to deliver us to total Human freedom, nor to save all beings.

The one Hindu teacher I knew, I truly loved: Sri Ramana Maharshi. But his realization and stopping/dwelling place was ...One Mind. That's very clear.

My Ch'an teacher the Venerable Sheng Yen occasionally taught about the stages he sees in the practice of his students: from "Scattered Mind"; to "Unified Mind"; to "No Mind". He spoke occasionally too about founders of other religions stopping at "Unified ("One-") Mind", and the danger of Ch'an Buddhist practitioners doing that. This was another clear instance in which my teacher could rightly claim that a good Buddhist teacher is necessary for one to come to awakening to one's nature, to dwell in emptiness, to know freedom, and to use all our original Human inheritances freely, for ourselves and for all beings. Well, he is and was entirely correct. May he rest in peace, and may his lineage continue.

Cool weather here, 25 degrees F cooler than "normal". A nice "anomaly"; I'll take it (it "should" be 35 C, but it's 20 C; Nature has a mind of its Own; so glad!).

:namaste:

--Joe

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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Tue May 21, 2019 12:19 am

Joe,

Thank you, I truly appreciate your comments and angle of vision, as always.
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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 21, 2019 12:21 am

fuki wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:19 am
Joe, Thank you, I truly appreciate your comments and angle of vision, as always.
Great to be right back with you; thanks.

--Joe

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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Tue May 21, 2019 12:31 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:06 pm
"Hindu", yes, Fuki.

Now, "Jerry", of the old US TV show series "Seinfeld", I'm told, would say, "Not that there's anything WRONG with that!"

Though, I too continue to "needle" you about it, and suppose I almost always will. :hatsoff:

;)

--Joe
:lol:

It's probably the "prerequisite condition" or "moist cloud" why I keep bringing it up Joe, because I love "our-time" even more then "me-time"
:lol:
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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 21, 2019 12:34 am

Agha Enver,
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am
I am on the side of that we should read this complicated texts, sutras etc or any other enlightened masters' words after reaching enlightenment.

That it is clear that they could only be understood fully only then.
My teacher used to say that, if we have had some opening or awakening experience, and then if we read the sutras, we should NOT read them using our experience to interpret and understand them; but we should read them to try to better understand our experience. This was Sheng Yen. I thought that this was a very humble and honest approach, and one that could keep us and our associates from trouble. The sutras are a touchstone. Of course, we still need a Human teacher.

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Tue May 21, 2019 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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