dependent origination

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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desert_woodworker
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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 21, 2019 12:37 am

fuki wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:31 am
It's probably the "prerequisite condition" or "moist cloud" why I keep bringing it up Joe, because I love "our-time" even more then "me-time" :lol:
Aww-w, shucks!, Mr. Marcel (looking down at my feet, and blushing).

:lol:

:namaste:

--Joe (aww, shucks..... )

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desert_woodworker
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Re: dependent origination

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 21, 2019 1:55 am

fuki wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:23 pm
Perhaps Gautama "2.0" can be of service :lol:
The Nature of Consciousness...

"By nature, consciousness is pure but by identification with the body, it becomes polluted, conceptually".
Fuki, I take it that that is a quote from a piece by one Sri Nisargadatta.

I'd say for myself, to counter or augment the Rishi, that, consciousness is pure, and by identification and association with the body and with all its necessities of life, it can remain pure. However, unless our life truly puts the necessary demands and responses (strains, and exercise) upon (the) body, original mentality can become clouded and submerged under unnatural states. Thus, "Yoga" is necessary; and, possible!, if we do not live primatively as we used to. We can find a way back, and forward.

In the Zen Buddhist tradition, the "Yoga" is a specific kind of sitting as taught by adepts in several schools, plus some 25 or 26 other practices there.

Since we no longer live in caves, with flickering flames to bring on the samadhi state in silence as we sit with other members of our small cave community, and no longer have a significant and Wise elder at the central seat of the cave community... well, we could stand to regain some of the benefits of our heritage, somehow. And we can do it. Zen Buddhist practice would seem to provide all this, if we go into it.

The body is not a polluter, but a haven. But it must be a body that is up to the definition, and the task. It may require purification(s). And so, we practice. I hope we all have good teachers, and teachers good for us.

best,

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Tue May 21, 2019 2:15 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:55 am

The body is not a polluter, but a haven. But it must be a body that is up to the definition, and the task. It may require purification(s). And so, we practice. I hope we all have good teachers, and teachers good for us.

Joe, thanks again.

I agree the body-mind transforms as the servant of love, live, beauty and truth. Yes I've met many teachers, and meet them on a daily basis, that happens if one keeps persisting in ardent surrender. In a few hours this body has to be at a pig slaughterhouse not far from here, 20.000 pigs are slaughtered there daily in that building, there will be no zen teachers present, but everything and everyone and everywhere is my sangha. I hope the same as you.
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loves' the unjust
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Re: dependent origination

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue May 21, 2019 5:47 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:34 am
Agha Enver,
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am
I am on the side of that we should read this complicated texts, sutras etc or any other enlightened masters' words after reaching enlightenment.

That it is clear that they could only be understood fully only then.
My teacher used to say that, if we have had some opening or awakening experience, and then if we read the sutras, we should NOT read them using our experience to interpret and understand them; but we should read them to try to better understand our experience. This was Sheng Yen. I thought that this was a very humble and honest approach, and one that could keep us and our associates from trouble. The sutras are a touchstone. Of course, we still need a Human teacher.

--Joe
Glad to hear that.

Gassho.

--Enver
cooper

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Tue May 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Spike wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:01 pm
Thank you for the opinion from a Hindu perspective.
What's funny about this, it's also possible within the framework of Advaita Vedanta to take a purely classical Buddhist view, because Advaita is a means of inquiry, not a creedal position as Westerners prefer to believe, and there are many perspectives within Advaita itself including atheists, humanists, and those to whom Atman ceases to exist when it merges with Brahman. Although Adi Shankara held his own opinion and made it central. In it's day Advaita was accused of being Buddhism just as Prajñāpāramitā teachings were accused of being Hindu. It's also worth noting that classical Buddhist teaching is entirely within the Vedic tradition. This is one of the weaknesses of the idealization of "Early Buddhism" "original Buddhism" or "Buddhas original teachings" (Pali texts minus their constant reference to Vedic cosmology). I can't casually dismiss neo-Advaita, although it's hard for me to understand what exactly is being said sometimes due to the fact I'm not immersed in that conversation.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Caodemarte » Tue May 21, 2019 4:08 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:45 pm
Spike wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:01 pm
Thank you for the opinion from a Hindu perspective.
..... It's also worth noting that classical Buddhist teaching is entirely within the Vedic tradition....
Buddhism clearly is not part of the Vedic tradition and does not stem from the Vedic traditions.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed May 22, 2019 4:31 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:08 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:45 pm
Spike wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:01 pm
Thank you for the opinion from a Hindu perspective.
..... It's also worth noting that classical Buddhist teaching is entirely within the Vedic tradition....
Buddhism clearly is not part of the Vedic tradition and does not stem from the Vedic traditions.
Oh that's interesting. So before Buddha awakened, how then did he learn about the goal of Final Liberation? Which is well described in the Vedas? Lucky guess? Magical foresight into the future? I'm all ears.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Nothing » Wed May 22, 2019 9:56 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 pm
Clyde, I've wondered and marveled about the origin of such disparities for decades.

The resolution is in the recognition of two points of view. One is "One Mind", a stopping point of Hindu practitioners ("Atman is Brahman").

The other is "No Mind", a non-stopping point of Zen Buddhist practitioners (given properly attentive teachers, and sufficient practice). "One Mind" is seen-through and gone through, to sudden awakening, as the Buddha's.

I think various other religions -- and cultic awarenesses -- were founded by people stopping at mere "One Mind". It becomes clear which ones.

--Joe
I agree and well said about the stopping point of Hindu and the practitioners from other religions/traditions.

But if I may add when it comes to Ramana Maharshi and Sri Niz, imo they went beyond their traditions and to me is without doubt that they realized "No Mind" and had rather deep awakening, but I do not know and can not speak if they stopped there and about their post- awakening practice or whether they further deepened and clarified their initial opening, as it is the case with the post awakening practice(s) that is/are present in Zen Buddhism.

I am not much familiar with Advaita Vedanta and their post awakening practice(s)( if there are any or not) , but maybe Fuki can shed more light about that since he seems to know much more about the Hindu traditions.

- Viktor

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Nothing
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Nothing » Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 am

fuki wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 pm

I think various other religions -- and cultic awarenesses -- were founded by people stopping at mere "One Mind". It becomes clear which ones.
This is mostly so, but if you can see outside of a religious framework many awakened beings weren't raised in a Buddhist culture, so they used words from a Hindu or Chrisitian or whatever framework since their "audience" needed words from that culture/religion. But generally I agree with you (when it comes to religion, monotheistic religions are a pest upon mankind, and most of the "Hindu" stuff isn't conducive, but most Buddhist stop at mere "One Mind" too, if they ever truly get there)

but I think it's funny to observe how "Buddhists" habitually react to Sri Niz, based on a few words.
99% of all the Buddhists teachers ever couldn't hold a lamp in his shadow. :hatsoff:
I agree, not many of the today's Zen teachers , especially on the West, really deserve to be called roshis :)

Kinda related with the above it reminds of one part of a conversation between Hisamatsu Shinichi and D.T. Suzuki from 1958 and although 60 years has passed since then imo it is still relevant today.

" H: Among the many you have met or heard of in the West is there anyone who you think has some understanding of Zen?
S: No one. Not yet anyway

H: I see. Not yet. Well then, is there at least someone you have hope for. (laughter)
S: No. Not even that.

H: So of the many people in the West who have written about Zen there aren't any who understand it?
S: That's right.

H: Well, is there at least some book written by a Westerner which is at least fairly accurate?
S: No. Not to my knowledge... other people do not ask me to criticise these writers , so I do not, although DeMartino's always saying
to me: "Tell 'em. Tell 'em" . (Laugther) But I have many other things I want to write.....
Kapleau was quite interested in Zen Training. What's he up to?

H: He's been practicing hard for some time and it that sense I admire him. But then he does not seem to know how to go about
practicing. He has been going to Hosshinji, but recently he has not been going. That's a problem. Without firmly established modern
Zen methods of practice even the people who come from the West to Japan to practice just can't do it sufficiently... "

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Caodemarte » Wed May 22, 2019 3:45 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 am

Kinda related with the above it reminds of one part of a conversation between Hisamatsu Shinichi and D.T. Suzuki from 1958 and although 60 years has passed since then imo it is still relevant today...
Good conversation. I'd like to read more of it. Where is it from?

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Caodemarte » Wed May 22, 2019 3:54 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:31 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:08 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:45 pm
Spike wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:01 pm
Thank you for the opinion from a Hindu perspective.
..... It's also worth noting that classical Buddhist teaching is entirely within the Vedic tradition....
Buddhism clearly is not part of the Vedic tradition and does not stem from the Vedic traditions.
Oh that's interesting. So before Buddha awakened, how then did he learn about the goal of Final Liberation? Which is well described in the Vedas? Lucky guess? Magical foresight into the future? I'm all ears.
By being a human being, just as all religious quests start.

There is no evidence that the Buddha ever referred to the Vedic traditon. The area where the Buddha lived was well outside the Vedic area. There is no evidence that he ever heard of the early Vedic tradition, although he might well have as the Magdha area appears to have been an area with multiple religious traditions. As Early Buddhism forms and comes into contact with Vedic religions it takes a pronounced anti-Vedic religions stand, denying that ritual observances without ethical intent have any effect and introduces a moral content into karma which was apparently not present in the Vedic religions of the time.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Nothing » Wed May 22, 2019 5:48 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:45 pm
Nothing wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 am

Kinda related with the above it reminds of one part of a conversation between Hisamatsu Shinichi and D.T. Suzuki from 1958 and although 60 years has passed since then imo it is still relevant today...
Good conversation. I'd like to read more of it. Where is it from?
Here Cao: Zen in America & the necessity of the Great Doubt https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpres ... merica.pdf.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Spike » Wed May 22, 2019 7:16 pm

I am in a cheapo extended stay hotel in Boca Raton, awaiting closing on a house purchase May 31st: hence, no books or computer to research and contribute a proper answer within this topic. (I now know more about smartphone internet stuff than I ever would have cared to.) Feel free to pillory me for my lack of basic research, understanding and sophistication (including spelling) in this poor excuse of a post. Missing my personal library is a particular disadvantage.

Ayurveda is considered the 'upaveda' or accessory of Athara Veda . . . the fourth book of the Vedas.

The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism are directly derived from the Four Arya Satyas of Ayurveda:

Dukha - Vyadhi (disease)
Dosha - Vyadhi Nidana (cause of disease)
Nirodha - Arogya (health)
Marga - Bhaisagya (medicaments)

Life is suffering
Suffering is due to attachments
Attachments can be overcome
There is a path for accomplishing this

Pancha Shila (Five Moral Precepts)
Eightfold Path

Well, of course i just lost the link for this and can't find/retrieve it

I know even less about Vedas/Hinduism than Buddhism/Sutras, etc, so I will defer to the scholars already here.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed May 22, 2019 7:44 pm

I find it unlikely that an aristocratic family in South Asia that produces a son who joins the then arising Śramaṇic movement had no context in Vedic culture. But what do I know? I'll cede the point on the basis of my ignorance.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Caodemarte » Wed May 22, 2019 10:38 pm

Spike wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:16 pm
I am in a cheapo extended stay hotel in Boca Raton,...
Ayurveda is considered the 'upaveda' or accessory of Athara Veda . . . the fourth book of the Vedas.

The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism are directly derived from the Four Arya Satyas of Ayurveda:

Dukha - Vyadhi (disease)
Dosha - Vyadhi Nidana (cause of disease)
Nirodha - Arogya (health)
Marga - Bhaisagya (medicaments)

Life is suffering
Suffering is due to attachments
Attachments can be overcome
There is a path for accomplishing this

Pancha Shila (Five Moral Precepts)
Eightfold Path

Well, of course i just lost the link for this and can't find/retrieve it

I know even less about Vedas/Hinduism than Buddhism/Sutras, etc, so I will defer to the scholars already here.
Having fled that area as the sea rises for more northern climes, good luck in Boca (just bear in mind that Raton does not come from the Spanish for “little rat,” but by a decision to drop the “e”from Ratone to make it more “elegant” and phonetic for English speakers which has caused unending confusion.)

Just as the sound of Boca Raton resembles the mouth of a small rat but does not derive from a 🐀, there is no sign that the 4NT derives from Aryuvedic medicine in substance, as distinct from form, or that cause and effect derives from Ayurvedic medicine. Of course, any logical statement or prescription will probably resemble other prescriptions or statements in form, but not in substance.

In medical Indian debates between Buddhists and other sects the same logical forum would have to be used by both sides. Otherwise both sides would just talk past each other and you could not have a real debate. The entire point of a debate is that they do not agree.

There is no evidence that that the Buddha saw himself as part of the Vedic tradition, cited that Vedas as a source in his preaching, or even that there was a significant Vedic presence in his area. Since Early Buddhism was directly contrary to central notions of Vedic religion (ritual purity, the related caste system, for example) Buddhism cannot be called a Vedic religion. As time goes by, Buddhism and the Vedic tradition form each other in dialogue, debate, mutual influence, and competition. We can see this in textual and other evidence. They do not become part of each other because their foundations are so very different and they subsequently developed differently.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Wed May 22, 2019 10:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Caodemarte
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Caodemarte » Wed May 22, 2019 10:42 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 5:48 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:45 pm
Nothing wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:31 am

Kinda related with the above it reminds of one part of a conversation between Hisamatsu Shinichi and D.T. Suzuki from 1958 and although 60 years has passed since then imo it is still relevant today...
Good conversation. I'd like to read more of it. Where is it from?
Here Cao: Zen in America & the necessity of the Great Doubt https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpres ... merica.pdf.
Thanks! Great stuff and very relevant!

Spike
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Spike » Wed May 22, 2019 11:02 pm

Spike wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:16 pm
I am in a cheapo extended stay hotel in Boca Raton,...
Caodemarte wrote: Having fled that area as the sea rises for more northern climes, good luck in Boca . . .
Will be living "up north" in Delray Beach (AMSL 13) near family in Miami. Such a cool little town! I believe I will be long gone, one way or (probably) the other, well before the inevitable change occurs.
Caodemarte wrote: Just as the sound of Boca Raton resembles the mouth of a small rat but does not derive from a 🐀, there is no sign that the 4NT derives from Aryuvedic medicine in substance, as distinct from form, or that cause and effect derives from Ayurvedic medicine. Of course, any logical statement or prescription will probably resemble other prescriptions or statements in form, but not in substance.
As I moreless implied, i could give a raton's ass.

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Re: dependent origination

Post by Seeker242 » Thu May 23, 2019 11:23 am

Spike wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:16 pm
I am in a cheapo extended stay hotel in Boca Raton, awaiting closing on a house purchase May 31st:
I'm a couple miles down the road! :waving:

Just in case you are not aware, there is a nice zen group there. :D

http://floridazen.com/

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Mason
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Re: dependent origination

Post by Mason » Wed May 29, 2019 3:10 am

A great text in which the Buddha delineates the differences between Buddhadharma and the other views of the time, the Brahmajala Sutta: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN01.html
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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fuki
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Re: dependent origination

Post by fuki » Wed May 29, 2019 11:41 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:38 pm
They do not become part of each other because their foundations are so very different and they subsequently developed differently.
Keeping on topic, a husband wouldn't be a husband without a wife, in the same way Buddhism wouldn't be Buddhism without numberless causes and conditions since everything is interlinked, but causes are transient and understanding dependent origination is understanding the transient dharma, which is Buddhism. So understanding dependent origination has no function in itself or for oneself, only in relation to others and thus "expounding the dharma" if we talk about DO all day on a zen forum between Buddhists, I frankly have no idea what we're doing or what in someone's name we think we understand and trying to grasp here. DO is only applicable to a relative view, to the "highest" view aka Reality, everything is uncaused.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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