confirmation

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clyde
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confirmation

Post by clyde » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:24 pm

[Since this subject has arisen before, I copied this post and made it a topic.]
desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:03 pm
Clyde,
clyde wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:11 pm
And while I practice and encourage others to practice, there are people who have awakened spontaneously; i.e., without any practice.
Though they may be FEW -- very few -- their un-practiced putative awakening has thus probably not been confirmed by an accomplished teacher, which, in the Ch'an and Zen sects, is de rigueur.

Thus -- I'd say -- such claims are specious, unless somehow substantiated. Anyway, it is not "awakening" as understood and valued in the Ch'an/Zen (etc.), sects, because THAT requires inspection, testing, and confirmation by one who is familiar with all the vicissitudes.

Though, Clyde, can you substantiate your claims of those "awakening spontaneously", please? No? Else, it's hot air.

;)

But, our/your topic is still "grace", and I assume you mean "gratuitous-grace".

That may be a category in some religions, but I think not in Ch'an and Zen, as I have written. Practice is of the essence (and correct practice, at that, we learn). Guided by an accomplished teacher. There should be no doubt about this, among practitioners in our school.

Granted, there are "Outer-paths", other ways, other Religions, which are not Ch'an, not Zen. Maybe these Outer-paths encompass and host such unsubstantiated "awakenings": I suspect so. There's no reason to think otherwise, since they are, by your definition, not an outcome of practice in Ch'an or Zen circles. Let them be examined by a Ch'an-, Zen-, Son-, Thien- Buddhist teacher. This is the way to be safe, and to remain on-topic, here, in a Zen Buddhist forum.

But the hypothetical, non-practicing, putatively-"awakenened" person may not be amenable to meeting someone truly awakened, to have a reality-check. Alas. It takes some affinity, as we know.

After awakening, a new phase of practice may be begun, guided by the teacher. This is not to be missed, for those Ch'an/Zen practitioners who may be interested. But such people -- here, and everywhere -- probably already know this.

:namaste:

--Joe
Joe; There’s so much to respond to, but I’ll keep my response focused on the notion of “confirmation”.

I agree, the Zen Way requires confirmation of awakening by an accomplished (authorized) Zen teacher.

But I haven’t met or read of a Zen teacher who holds the view that only Zen practice leads to awakening or that only awakenings confirmed by a Zen teacher are actual awakening.

As I understand it, in Zen, the confirmation is like the “Kosher” stamp on some foods. It’s not the stamp that makes the food kosher; the food is kosher - with or without the stamp. And the stamp isn’t for the food; the stamp is for the benefit of the consumer.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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loves' the unjust
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Re: confirmation

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:46 pm

desert_woodworker wrote: After awakening, a new phase of practice may be begun, guided by the teacher. This is not to be missed, for those Ch'an/Zen practitioners who may be interested. But such people -- here, and everywhere -- probably already know this.
what is that new phase of practice?

just wondered
cooper

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fuki
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Re: confirmation

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:11 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:46 pm
just wondered
It's not that. (wondering)

But if you like candy go for it. :cat:
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Mason
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Re: confirmation

Post by Mason » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:50 pm

If confirmation is required for awakening to be awakening, what exactly is being confirmed?
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Re: confirmation

Post by avisitor » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:04 am

So, Kosher food is just Kosher and doesn't need to be confirmed by others
However, a person is not Kosher food.
A person needs some guidance to understand what one experiences.

After all, there are many things out there one can experience that isn't Kensho
When I had such an experience, I spoke with my teacher and asked what it meant
He just said to ignore it and keep practicing.

What I experienced, it was like I felt the source of my inner voice went silent
No thoughts, no arising, no following, just silence in my head
And what made me up .. was pushed aside.
Even though, on unfamiliar ground, I felt nothing. No panic. No fear. Nothing.
But, as my teacher said, .. well, you know what he said.

A person doesn't know what he doesn't know
And someone who knows can certainly help

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[james]
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Re: confirmation

Post by [james] » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:23 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:04 am
——
A person needs some guidance to understand what one experiences.
——
He just said to ignore it and keep practicing.
——
A person doesn't know what he doesn't know
And someone who knows can certainly help
Isn’t a fundamental aspect of practice the cultivation and recognition of not knowing ... that there is nothing to know and no one to know?

With respect to the guide, mentor, teacher ... how can you know that this person knows much less what this person knows? Sure it’s good to have someone to talk to from time to time but in the end we are each on our own. Hence “ignore it and keep practicing”. Practice being the exploration and integration of “not knowing”.

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Re: confirmation

Post by Spike » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:46 pm

[james] wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:23 pm
With respect to the guide, mentor, teacher ... how can you know that this person knows . . .?
In my koan practice, the emphasis was on my own recognition (knowing), rather than the teacher's, which for me was a given (the teacher's knowledge), after many teishos but especially after the initial interview. Hence, a teacher's question, to which would be demonstrated my own response, were the criteria for any mutual and obvious evaluatory conclusions. The skillful means was the initial question, with timing, followed by tried-and-true follow-up questions.
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Re: confirmation

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:26 pm

[james] wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:23 pm
...Isn’t a fundamental aspect of practice the cultivation and recognition of not knowing ... that there is nothing to know and no one to know?...
Not if it rests there. It must be resolved. Otherwise it us just a hole to climb into and a shield against genuine inquiry. And especially not if the "not knowing" is someone else's doubt!

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Re: confirmation

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:39 am

Clyde,
clyde wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:24 pm

I agree, the Zen Way requires confirmation of awakening by an accomplished (authorized) Zen teacher.

But I haven’t met or read of a Zen teacher who holds the view that only Zen practice leads to awakening or that only awakenings confirmed by a Zen teacher are actual awakening.

As I understand it, in Zen, the confirmation is like the “Kosher” stamp on some foods. It’s not the stamp that makes the food kosher; the food is kosher - with or without the stamp. And the stamp isn’t for the food; the stamp is for the benefit of the consumer.
To be kosher, the putative awakening is tested (probed, for the student's and all beings' safety), and confirmed or denied by the Ch'an, Son, Thien, or Zen teacher.

In our (Ch'an, Son, Thien, or Zen) way, that is.

Other ways are "outer paths": Other Religions. Too numerous to detail. So, let's not go much into that in a dedicated Zen forum (although, most things "go" in "Lounge").

:namaste: ,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: confirmation

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:42 am

Thanks, Enver.
loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:46 pm
desert_woodworker wrote: After awakening, a new phase of practice may be begun, guided by the teacher. This is not to be missed, for those Ch'an/Zen practitioners who may be interested. But such people -- here, and everywhere -- probably already know this.
what is that new phase of practice?

just wondered
A teacher will spell it out for you, when the time comes. And, it may keep on changing after that, too.

--Joe

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michaeljc
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Re: confirmation

Post by michaeljc » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:36 am

The acid test -
If ones fears death one has never past through the gateless gate. Any number of confirmations can't influence this.
but -
Not fearing death does not mean that one has passed through the gate

IMHO

M

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