A Zen Story

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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loves' the unjust
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A Zen Story

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:20 pm

There is a Zen story that goes like this. ‘Master, how do I enter Zen?’ asked the pupil.
'Do you hear the sound of that little mountain stream?’ asked the master.
‘Yes, I do,’ replied the pupil.
‘Enter Zen from there,’ said the master. 
cooper

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fuki
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:20 pm
There is a Zen story that goes like this. ‘Master, how do I enter Zen?’ asked the pupil.
'Do you hear the sound of that little mountain stream?’ asked the master.
‘Yes, I do,’ replied the pupil.
‘Enter Zen from there,’ said the master. 
Q: In perception through body and mind, are there several forms, such as eye perception, ear perception, nose perception, body perception, mind perception, etc.?
A: No, there are not several forms like these.

Q: If there are not several ways of perceiving, what, then, is perception?
A: This so-called "perception" is one's own Nature. One's own Nature, originally pure and clean, deep and still, is, in fact, in its voidness, perception.

Q: Since this pure, clean "substance" cannot be located, where does perception come from?
A: It is like a great, bright mirror that, even though it has no images inside it, can perceive and reflect all kinds of shadows. It is just utterly void no-mind. If the mind of the practicer does not grasp anything, then false thought will not arise; and the ego and its objects will vanish. Then the mind would naturally be pure and clean because it would be one with the pure and clean perception of void Original Nature. The Dharmapada Sutra says: "Perception manifesting itself in the Absolute Void -- this is the learned master."
https://www.ymba.org/books/entering-tao ... ightenment


Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto
http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passa ... o-frog.htm

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." - from the Bahiya Sutra
huang po 2.jpg
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loves' the unjust
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by loves' the unjust » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:42 pm

!
cooper

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lindama
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by lindama » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:47 pm

perception belongs to the thinking mind. in emptiness, there is awareness.

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bokki
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:42 pm

heya, linda
:110:
now, ill ask, politely tho,
"in emptiness, there is awareness."
?

if it is empty, what awareness, and by whom?
oh, I understand, we are all aware...unless it is the middle of the night, and I'm asleep, or I'm dead, in d grave...
look, I understand, the duality of emptiness and existence is one of the crucial points in our understanding...
as seekers of a zen view...
but, let's take a step back and understand emptiness, as it is,
...no awareness, nothing, no attribute, no adding nothing, or thing.
a master of old, was it Ta Hui, can't remember, or who..
said,
the buddhas discerned what is most difficult, even impossible to discern.
that does give credence to awareness but does not take away the fact that emptiness has nothing, not even awareness.
anyway, just food for thought, and I recognise the aware part.
thnx, Linda
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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lindama
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by lindama » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:44 pm

heya bokki,
as far as I understand, emptiness is not a duality, nor is it empty as in void, deaf and dumb. it's more like lacking a sense of permanency. that's as far as I can go.

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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:36 pm

please, Linda, do not trouble yourself with my bla bla, i know its not healthy, right, or helpful,
but just a few words, if i may.
emptiness is not a duality.
it is empty as in void, deaf and dumb.
it's the only permanence.
you can go far, but, that is just my opinion...uhm, no, it's a fact.

hmm, did i say, please don't read my words..?
well, please don't read my words.
of course, only in my opinion.

thnx, Linda, im so glad 2 talk 2 you.
:115:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: A Zen Story

Post by lindama » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:05 pm

:115:

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Spike
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by Spike » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:30 pm

bokki, this is a pretty straightforward short article:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/emptines ... _b_2769189

Hakuun Yasutani roshi, quoted in the Shambala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen (1991, p.38), is summarized as saying that buddha-nature, Busshō, (also dharma-nature, Hosshō), is identical to emptiness.

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bokki
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:06 pm

THANX, Spike, for your effort and a good link.
maybe, just maybe, we could open this question into a new thread, so we can see what all cats and dogs think about emptiness, and i, lol, can turn my confused thoughts into words, and be criticized or refuted.
maybe just open a thread named EMPTINESS.../?
what do you think? it is a big question, are we ready to word up?
or, lets leave it be, move on?
thnx, spike.

dang, i just have to, sorry..
:115:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: A Zen Story

Post by fuki » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:03 am

bokki wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:42 pm
if it is empty, what awareness, and by whom?
oh, I understand, we are all aware...unless it is the middle of the night, and I'm asleep, or I'm dead, in d grave...
Your question indicates an identification with the body, does the one who is aware have name and form?
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bokki
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:05 pm

heya, fuki, how's it today?
Your question indicates an identification with the body, does the one who is aware have name and form?
identification with the body/>yes im guilty of that, i must say. would you offer an alternative, and, what do you identify with?
does the one who is aware have name and form?/> uhm, yes, the nick is bokki, in the form of an older man.

i don't understand, why disown form, i mean, its a universe of form.
awareness is a form, since it only exists as a duality to he perceived.
i dont remember reading huang po saying, the perceived can not perceive.
ok, so i perceive a form, say, a dog....does the dog not perceive me?

not to go into details, but i think words and semantics can really mess up ones perception.
but i suppose that is another topic.

thnx, fuki
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: A Zen Story

Post by fuki » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:02 pm

bokki wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:05 pm
heya, fuki, how's it today?
Lovely bro, thanks, I trust you are well?
identification with the body/>yes im guilty of that, i must say. would you offer an alternative, and, what do you identify with?
I'm asking because you show an interest in emptiness/"awareness" and when identified to the body-mind complex there can never be realisation through a mental process. There is no alternative, the question of what I identify with does not apply, you only have to be where you are instead of imagining occupying a certain volume. All anyone ever tells you about emptiness is false, first give up the concept that you are anything in particular and stabilize in that state (the knowledge that 'you are') which is formless, not body, mind or anything that can be said.
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by fuki » Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:07 pm

bokki wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:05 pm

i don't understand, why disown form, i mean, its a universe of form.
There is no question of disowning because no one is a name/body, but due to false identification someone comes to you and says "you are not a body" it's like a thorn to remove a thorn.
awareness is a form
Not at all, your concept of awareness might be a mental formation but can you grasp that concept? any concept?
You see even shitty wordly knowledge has no form, let alone the Knowledge of your true/original state/nature.
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by lindama » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:06 pm

Simply: yes, there is a universe of form Bokki, it's just that the borders and boundaries and other notions are absent. I hear that being said in so many ways above. no exclusions, no separations, no sorting of ideas. there still can be intelligence and action.

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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:36 pm

heya, linda, fuki, all
hope ur good
i thought, its a tough question 4 me, let me exit slowly. but id rather say what i mean.
so, its all just my opinion, mentation, and not "it's like this", but like fodder for questions.

in the OP, a sound of stream is advised.
buddha entered by the sight of a star.
another by the sound of a pebble hitting bamboo, or by seeing flowers, or by Rizai hitting him..

all form, to realise the non-form, the oneness, empty of all attributes, or any separation...

if talking about borders, plz remember to remove your hand from d hot stove,
or help ur neighbour, or a cat, dog or plant.
would it be ok, if one said, we are all empty, at one, without seeking, ...?

awareness is form, not like in the sense of shape or colour, smell, but, in knowing something, there is duality,
thought is a biochemical electric process..
all form.
form that discerns the non-form is central to zen enlightenment.
anyway, 2 much words, but, thank you for helping me to word hem.
lol, words, form again.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: A Zen Story

Post by lindama » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:27 pm

Oh Contrarian!

taking yr hand off a hot stove doesn't have a lot to do with walls in the mind. so, I'd say stop! keep company with this... like walking with a friend in the woods, silently.

thus,
delete the need to understand
make no comparisons
make no judgements

linda

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bokki
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:19 pm

Lindama:
Oh Contrarian!
lol, lol, well, maybe, probably, quite...lol

ok, u know this:
Therefore O Sariputra, in emptiness
there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no name, no concepts,
no knowledge.
No eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, nobody, no mind; no
forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or object of the mind, no sight
organ, no hearing organ and so forth to no mind-consciousness element; no
ignorance or extinction of ignorance, no decay and death, no extinction of
decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path,
no cognition, no attainment, nor anything to attain. There is nothing to
accomplish and so Bodhisattvas can rely on the Perfection of Wisdom
without trouble. Being without trouble they are not afraid, having overcome
anything upsetting they attain Nirvana.
tho, a silent stroll through the woods sounds like a perfect day.
tho, a silent stroll through the woods sounds like a perfect day.
that is form, linda, d 1 being d same as emptiness.
so, why hang 2 non-form, and make a biased view?
he, i did not forget...
:hatsoff: :115:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by bokki » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am

enver
There is a Zen story that goes like this. ‘Master, how do I enter Zen?’ asked the pupil.
'Do you hear the sound of that little mountain stream?’ asked the master.
‘Yes, I do,’ replied the pupil.
‘Enter Zen from there,’ said the master.
enter what?
why enter?
a sound of that little mountain stream?
why?
what for?

moreover,
how does the entry by the sound of that little mountain stream
look like?
if you entered, please advise.
thank you.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: A Zen Story

Post by [james] » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:54 am

bokki wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am
enter what?
Enter yourself.
bokki wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am
why enter?
A different perspective.
bokki wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am
a sound of that little mountain stream?
why?
what for?
Could be anything.
bokki wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:16 am
how does the entry by the sound of that little mountain stream
look like?
How does the sound of that little mountain stream enter you?

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