Zen Practice (Emptiness Concept)

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Mason
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Mason » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:06 am

Indeed, I believe that Enver meant to say that zazen is more than just a particular meditation technique - the use of the phrase "ten or eleven" would then make sense as a demonstration of the relative unimportance of the numbers.

If that is in fact what he meant, the natural question would be: what is zazen?

Mainly I've seen/heard the word "zazen" simply refer to meditation in Zen Buddhism. But I'm sure there are deeper meanings.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:30 am

exactly, what I have in mind.
cooper

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[james]
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:49 pm

Spike wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:45 am

Primitive humans were not constricted by weather. They adapted. They didn't wait for herds to reappear. They learned to follow them.
They adapted because they were constricted ... constriction precedes adaptation. Adaptation is a generational process. Meanwhile weather and climate, as we continue to experience here and now, can continually throw up situations and circumstances which we, humans, animals, plants, etc, cannot adapt to in the short term. If you are living in a flood plain and the monsoon seems to be endless and you know that soon you, your family and your neighbors will be up on the roof and no one will be coming to rescue you ... there is nothing to adapt to. All you can do is wait, hope for the best maybe, or if you are so inclined look at your situation from a broader perspective. Adaptation comes if those afflicted by recurring hardships can manage gather knowledge from those hardships and have the energy and capacities to put that knowledge to future use.
I believe zazen originated during the time of zen Buddhism, not at the time of the invention of the wheel, and is therefore a Buddhist practice unlike any other.
Zazen wasn’t pulled out of thin air by the Buddha nor any subsequent Buddhists. It is a natural human (and possibly non-human) capacity. I would say that Buddhists have shaped and fine tuned this inherent capacity for their own purpose but would not accept that zazen, a specific state of being in this reality, is “a Buddhist practice unlike any other”.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:29 pm

[james] wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:49 pm
Zazen wasn’t pulled out of thin air by the Buddha nor any subsequent Buddhists. It is a natural human (and possibly non-human) capacity. I would say that Buddhists have shaped and fine tuned this inherent capacity for their own purpose but would not accept that zazen, a specific state of being in this reality, is “a Buddhist practice unlike any other”.
"Dogen (1200-1252) was the founder of the Soto Zen tradition, and a medita­tion master par excellence. His Shobogenzo is one of the great masterpieces of the Buddhist doctrinal tradition. Contempo­rary scholars are finding much in this text to help them understand, not only a unique approach to Buddhadharma [the teaching of the Buddha], but also to zazen as practice. For Dogen, zazen is first and foremost an holistic body posture, not a state of mind.

Dogen uses various terms to describe zazen, one of which is gotsu-za, which means “sitting immovable like a bold mountain.” A related term of great im­portance is kekka-fuza—“full-lotus position”—which Dogen regards as the key to zazen. However, Dogen’s understand­ing of kekka-fuza is completely different from the yogic tradition of India, and this understanding sheds a great deal of light on how we should approach zazen.

In most meditative traditions, practi­tioners start a certain method of medita­tion (such as counting breaths, visualizing sacred images, concentrating the mind on a certain thought or sensation, etc.) after getting comfortable sitting in full-lotus position. In other words, it is kekka-fuza plus meditation. Kekka-fuza in such us­age becomes a means for optimally con­ditioning the body and mind for mental exercises called “meditation,” but is not an objective in itself. The practice is struc­tured dualistically, with a sitting body as a container and a meditating mind as the contents. And the emphasis is always on meditation as mental exercise. In such a dualistic structure, the body sits while the mind does something else.

For Dogen, on the other hand, the objective of zazen is just to sit in kekka-fuza correctly—there is absolutely noth­ing to add to it. It is kekka-fuza plus zero. Kodo Sawaki Roshi, the great Zen master of early 20lh century Japan, said, “Just sit zazen, and that’s the end of it.” In this understanding, zazen goes beyond mind/body dualism; both the body and the mind are simultaneously and completely used up just by the act of sitting in kekka-fuza. In the Samadhi King chapter of Shobogenzo, Dogen says, “Sit in kekka-fuza with body, sit in kekka-fuza with mind, sit in kekka-fuza of body-mind falling off.”

https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... editation/
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by fuki » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:10 pm

To you for whom something is still missing in Zazen
(by Uchiyama Kosho)

Dogen Zenji’s practice of shikantaza is exactly what my late teacher Sawaki Kodo Roshi calls the “zazen of just sitting”. So for me too, true zazen naturally means shikantaza – just sitting. That is to say that we do NOT practice zazen to have “kensho” experiences, “solve” a lot of koans or receive “inka-shomei”. Zazen just means to sit.

On the other hand, it is a fact that even among the practioners of the Japanese Soto-school, which traces itself back to its founder Dogen Zenji, not a few have doubts about this kind of zazen. To make their point, they will quote passages like these:

“In the hall: ‘I have not visited many Zen monasteries. Having met with my master Tendo, I quietly confirmed that the eyes are horizontal and the nose vertical. Nobody can fool me anymore. I have returned back home with empty hands.’ “(Eihei Koroku, 1st chapter)

“I travelled to Sung China and visited Zen masters in all parts of the country, studying the Five Houses of Zen. Finally I met my master Nyojo on Taihaku peak, and the great matter of a whole life time of study came to an end.” (Shobogenzo Bendowa)

Now people will say: “Hasn’t Dogen Zenji himself said that he ‘confirmed that the eyes are horizontal and the nose vertical, and that the great matter of a whole life time of study came to an end’? What use is there then when an ordinary person who has not the least glimpse of enlightenment ‘just sits’? Isn’t that kind of zazen just stupid?”

I remember all to well having had this kind of doubts myself, and of course not only I had these doubts: Many of those who practiced under the guidance of Sawaki Roshi eventually gave up just sitting and switched to “Kensho-Zen” or “Koan-Zen”. Therefore I can understand these doubts very well.

First, we should know that Sawaki Roshi was a typical Zen master just as you would imagine one, and his charisma was so great that anyone who would listen to his talks for the first time felt attracted like a piece of iron towards a magnet. Therefore, when Roshi would say that “zazen is good for nothing” (that was Sawaki Roshi’s expression for the zazen that is “beyond gain and beyond satori (mushotoku-mushogo)”), everyone thought that he was just saying it, but that in reality zazen would of course get them “somewhere somehow” over time. I am sure that many practiced like that with Sawaki Roshi.

Maybe those who lived outside and came to the temple just to participate in zazen or the sesshin did not have such strong doubts. But those serious enough to throw their physical existence into the Way, become monks and join our community that practiced under the Roshi – those who really lived their lives as zazen practice would sooner or later start to have doubts about shikantaza. Because however much you may sit, you will never get “your fill” – zazen won’t satisfy you. It is just like even though you eat, the food does not seem to fill your stomach. So when I say that we never get “our fill” by zazen, I mean that we do not have the feeling of “satori” filling our stomach.

Many of the young people who had dedicated their physical existence to the practice of the Way started to think: “What use is there in wasting my youth on this practice of zazen which seems to have no lasting results?” And too many finally left, saying: “And what about those ‘senior students’ who have practiced for years? Aren’t they all still the same ordinary deluded people? After all, what we really need is SATORI!”

I myself felt as if those doubts would make me burst. Still, I continued to practice zazen with Sawaki Roshi for 25 years – until his death. Therefore, I think that I understand the doubts pretty well, but I have also come to understand the meaning of shikantaza that Dogen Zenji and Sawaki Roshi are talking about. When I write the following, I will try to be something like an “interpreter” between the two sides.
When I say that an “interpreter” is needed, I do not only mean to say that the doubting practioners do not understand the words of Dogen Zenji or Sawaki Roshi (that is of course the case), but also that the words of Dogen Zenji and Sawaki Roshi often do not reach down to the root of the doubts and problems of us, who try to practice shikantaza. This is not because Dogen Zenji or Sawaki Roshi would not understand our doubts, but rather because they express themselves in a way that far transcends our ordinary common sense. I therefore want to try my best at offering my own “translation” of Dogen Zenji and Sawaki Roshi’s words.

For example, let’s take a look at the quote from the “Eihei Koroku”:

“I quietly confirmed that the eyes are horizontal and the nose vertical. Nobody can fool me anymore. I have returned back home with empty hands.”

How about reading it like this:

“I confirmed that I am living my life by breathing the present breath in the present moment.”

How can I make such an interpretation? The fact is that when I am reading the “Shobogenzo”, I do not do it as a scholar of Buddhist studies who just tries to find some order in the labyrinth of Chinese characters. I am also not reading it as a sectarian who thinks that each single character is so holy that he wants to conserve it like canned food and then prostrate in front of it, without ever opening the can. When I read Dogen Zenji, I do it as a wayseeker: Living my completely new life, I am always looking for a brand new way to live this life. For me, this is the meaning of words like “reflecting on your own mind with the old teaching”, or what is expressed as “to study the Buddha way means to study yourself”.

Anyway, if we read it in the light of our completely new life, we should not interpret Dogen Zenji’s words about the eyes being horizontal and the nose vertical in a flat and static manner. We should realize that “the eyes horizontal, the nose vertical” expresses the dynamic functioning of this “raw” (Japanese “nama”, lit. “raw”, that means “fresh and alive”, unprocessed by our thoughts. The Japanese word for “life” or “birth” is written with the same Chinese character (but pronounced differently)) life we are living. It is the dynamic flow of living our life by breathing the present breath in the present moment. Read thus, we should see that Dogen Zenji isn’t talking about some mystical state that one might experience during zazen once you get “satori”: He is talking about the plain facts of life that everyone of us is living.

Therefore it is said at the beginning of the “Fukanzazengi”: “The way is complete and all-pervading, why use practice as a means to verify it? The vehicle of truth wheels freely, why do you exhaust your efforts?”
And how about the following sentences? “If there is only the slightest discrimination, it will cause a separation like that between heaven and earth. If you follow or resist, your mind will be shattered and lost.”
It is a basic fact that each one of us lives his completely new life, fresh and raw. But when we start to think about it in our heads, in that moment we get stuck in a static concept that we “grasp”. Because what we think of as “raw, fresh and alive” isn’t raw, fresh and alive anymore. “Raw, fresh and alive” means to open the hand of thought: Only what we let go can be raw, fresh and alive. Zazen means this opening of the hand of thought, it is the posture of letting go.

I want to add some words here about the actual practice of shikantaza – just sitting. When we sit in zazen, it is not that there are no thoughts at all appearing in our heads. Actually, a lot of thoughts appear. But if you start to chase those thoughts, then that can’t be called zazen anymore. You are just thinking in the sitting posture. It is important for you to realize then that, “I am doing zazen right now, this is not the time for chasing thoughts!” Return to the correct posture, and open the hand of thought again. This is what is called “waking up from distraction and confusion”.
Next we might become tired. Now it is time to remind ourselves, “I am doing zazen right now, this is not the time to sleep!” Let’s then return to the correct posture, and wake up to zazen. This is what is called “waking up from dullness and fatigue”.
Zazen means to wake up from distraction and confusion, dullness and fatigue for a billion times, and return to the wide awake posture of zazen. “Living the raw and fresh life called zazen” means to arouse the mind for a billion times in this fashion, practice and realize it for a billion times: This is what is called shikantaza – just sitting.

People say that Dogen Zenji got “satori” by dropping off body and mind, but what is this “dropping off body and mind (shinjin-datsuraku)” in the first place? Dogen Zenji writes in the “Hokyoki”:

“The abbot pointed out: ‘To practice Zen means to drop off body and mind. It has nothing to do with burning incense, doing prostrations, calling upon Buddha, confessing one’s sins or studying the scriptures. It is just sitting.’ I stepped forward and asked: ‘What is dropping off body and mind?’ The abbot answered: ‘Dropping off body and mind is zazen. When you just sit, you are freed from the five desires and the five illusions disappear.'”

That means that the zazen in which you open the hand of thought and let go, let go a billion times, is in itself the dropping off of body and mind. Dropping off body and mind isn’t some special kind of mystical experience either.
Only this kind of zazen can be called “the whole way of Buddha-Dharma, which isn’t equalled by anything” (from the “Bendowa”). And it is also called the “true gate of Buddha-Dharma” (ibid).

Let’s compare living our lives with driving a car: You shouldn’t sleep behind the wheel, and you shouldn’t drink and drive. Also, when you are driving a car, you shouldn’t be tense and you shouldn’t think too much – it’s dangerous. The same is true when we sit behind the wheel of our own lives. The basics for driving our own life consist in waking up from dullness and fatigue, so that we don’t fall asleep behind the wheel. Also, we have to wake up from distraction and confusion, that means we must not be tense or think too much while driving. Zazen means to put these basics of “driving your life” into actual practice. Thus it can be called the “whole way” and “true gate” of the Buddha-Dharma, and it is “universally recommened” by Dogen Zenji in his “Fukanzazengi”.

“The body and mind of the buddha way are grasses and trees, stones and tiles, wind and rain, fire and water. To discover these things around you and realize the buddha way inside them is the meaning of arousing bodhi mind. When you grasp emptiness, you should build pagodas and Buddhas with it. Use the water from the valley to manifest Buddhas and pagodas. To do this means to arouse the mind of uncomparable, complete bodhi-wisdom, it means to repeat the one arousal of mind for a billion times. Thus, you are practicing realization.” (Shobogenzo Hotsumujoshin)

It would be a great mistake to interpret this “to repeat the one arousal of mind for a billion times” as a mere reminder for those who haven’t yet experienced satori to not neglect their practice. To arouse the mind for a billion times means that the raw and fresh life breaths as fresh and raw life.
Those people who give up the practice of shikantaza because it doesn’t give them a feeling of satisfaction, and they thus start to get bored by their practice, do so because they intellectualize these “billion times of arousing the mind” in their heads. They think: “Oh gosh! How could I possibly do this for a billion times? What I need is SATORI! If I could have only one big satori, that would take care of those billion times once and for all!”
That is just as if we were told when born as babies: “From now on you will have to breathe for your whole lifetime, each single breath, each single moment – you will breathe in, breathe out a billion times.” Would we reply: “Oh gosh! I have to try somehow to take care of that breath of my life for once and all, and take only one single big breath!”

Even if we tried to do that, we would hardly succeed. That is why the “Shobogenzo Hotsumujoshin” (quoted above) continues:

“A person who thinks that we arouse the mind once and for all, without ever arousing it again, and who says that practice is endless, but the fruit of realization only one – such a person has never heard the Buddha-Dharma, doesn’t know the Buddha-Dharma, and doesn’t meet the Buddha-Dharma.”

Who tries to have “satori” once and for all doesn’t accept the fact that we have to live our fresh and raw life just as fresh and raw as it is.
Even in the biological sense we can only live by breathing the breath of our whole life, each single breath, each single moment. To live means to breathe this breath right now, and therefore to live your “raw/fresh” life naturally doesn’t mean to think about it in your head. It means to accept life as life – as “raw, fresh and alive” – and to develop an attitude of living. When you do this, that is exactly “the great matter of a life time of study coming to the end”. It is also the start of true practice of shikantaza – just sitting. This is what Dogen Zenji calls “unity of practice-realization” and “practice on the ground of realization”.
And that is why Sawaki Roshi always said:

“There is no beginning to satori, nor an end to practice!”
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fuki
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by fuki » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm

Mason wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:06 am

If that is in fact what he meant, the natural question would be: what is zazen?
Depends on who you ask eh?
The inquiry itself for me is like trying to grasp space, the better inquiry perhaps is,
what are we trying to avoid?
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:06 pm

[james] wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:49 pm
Spike wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:45 am
I believe zazen originated during the time of zen Buddhism, not at the time of the invention of the wheel, and is therefore a Buddhist practice unlike any other.
Zazen wasn’t pulled out of thin air by the Buddha nor any subsequent Buddhists. It is a natural human (and possibly non-human) capacity. I would say that Buddhists have shaped and fine tuned this inherent capacity for their own purpose but would not accept that zazen, a specific state of being in this reality, is “a Buddhist practice unlike any other”.
Above I included a quote about zazen from a Soto school point of view, because I believe that is how most students here are oriented. My own zazen practice is Rinzai koan zazen, which, as far as I know, is unlike any other type of practice.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:45 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm
Mason wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:06 am
If that is in fact what he meant, the natural question would be: what is zazen?
Depends on who you ask eh?
The inquiry itself for me is like trying to grasp space, the better inquiry perhaps is,
what are we trying to avoid?
If we recognize zazen as the way of neither avoiding nor grasping then the what is not so important perhaps.

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by avisitor » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:56 am

Zazen to me seems to be a time for being something other than they way were are with the world
The practice allows for change to happen even though change is happening all the time
I still like the quote of the monk who polishes roof tiles into mirrors
Can not practice Zazen by making mirrors out of roof tiles
Or looking for enlightenment, satori

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by fuki » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:27 pm

[james] wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:45 am

If we recognize zazen as the way of neither avoiding nor grasping then the what is not so important perhaps.
Thanks James yes, "neither avoiding or grasping" "non-dwelling" or we can also then say "naturalness"
I just shared the suzuki talk elsewhere hence the link, don't remember who said it originally - "zazen teaches zazen"
http://www.kleine-spirituelle-seite.de/ ... TfazJhxj_A

my earlier point was that on forums the gazillion of topics about "what is zazen" is always off, since any idea about zazen ofcourse isn't the experience of zazen, so it's basically asking practise instructions, talk about zazen as this or that ofcourse is a mental construction, like talking about the menu without ever tasting the food.
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:37 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:27 pm
... topics about "what is zazen" is always off, since any idea about zazen ofcourse isn't the experience of zazen, so it's basically asking practise instructions, talk about zazen as this or that ofcourse is a mental construction, like talking about the menu without ever tasting the food.
It may not be the experience of zazen but it is the experience of the idea of zazen.

Just as we may talk about the menu without having tasted the food described in the menu, the menu has suggestive value to us because we have tasted other foods. We carry memories of food experiences in the form of ideas of food and look to a menu as a reminder of those earlier experiences and as a hint of possibly fulfilling future experience.

Talk about zazen is like the menu. I think that we all have an inkling of something experienced, sometimes well hidden or just barely sensed or even just beginning to blossom, and we can be drawn to talk of zazen or the idea of zazen for encouragement and perhaps even nourishment.j
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by [james] » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:58 am

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:55 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:27 pm
... topics about "what is zazen" is always off, since any idea about zazen ofcourse isn't the experience of zazen, so it's basically asking practise instructions, talk about zazen as this or that ofcourse is a mental construction, like talking about the menu without ever tasting the food.
But it makes a big difference, imo, who does the talking. If one doesn't do zazen and doesn't consult with a teacher, the depth, usefulness and veracity of the dialogue is questionable.

It's okay, and even educational, to share about zazen, but the source has to be vetted.
[james] wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:37 am
It may not be the experience of zazen but it is the experience of the idea of zazen.
In the weeds on this, but no one else to blame, no doubt.
[james] wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:37 am
Just as we may talk about the menu without having tasted the food described in the menu, the menu has suggestive value to us because we have tasted other foods. We carry memories of food experiences in the form of ideas of food and look to a menu as a reminder of those earlier experiences and as a hint of possibly fulfilling future experience.

Talk about zazen is like the menu. I think that we all have an inkling of something experienced, sometimes well hidden or just barely sensed or even just beginning to blossom, and we can be drawn to talk of zazen or the idea of zazen for encouragement and perhaps even nourishment.j
I do not have a mere "inkling", because I, like many others here I'm sure, have a practice. The "something experienced" is in the practice.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
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Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:00 am

Previously, i've had said that

teaching is
existence/peace
void
& emptiness

i decide to see everything in
existence/void
view

everything with one eye

there you find
emptiness

i'had previously talk about

with the emptiness eye
you discover the zen practice easily
cause when all and everything become empty
naturally you find there is nothing to think
as all is same

then only the peace remains
that will be in use in communication/relation
with the other

a peace word:
if you feel a need to speak then speak.you know that moment.talk is automatic

or in another words talk is not cheap

(my current thoughts..)
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:15 am

When you (learn to) see eveything in one eye
that is emptiness,
naturally, you see that there is nothing to think
as all is same

is the zen practice
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:31 am

Emptiness:

"Some 15 years ago a friend at another forum has asked me a question.I was a beginner at the time.

The reflection of the moon on the water is it real or unreal?

This question helped me to understand the concept of emptiness."


- from my previous post
for a better understanding of emptiness
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Re: Zen Practice

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:37 am

a deep note

all my words are my words
tie down me
cooper

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Re: Zen Practice

Post by lindama » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:03 pm

Speaking of one eye ..... Robert Frost speaks of practice... "... But if you so much as dare to speak,
A cloud comes over the sunlit arch ..." the Tao simply says: not two.
TWO TRAMPS IN MUD TIME

Out of the mud two strangers came
And caught me splitting wood in the yard,
And one of them put me off my aim
By hailing cheerily "Hit them hard!"
I knew pretty well why he had dropped behind
And let the other go on a way.
I knew pretty well what he had in mind:
He wanted to take my job for pay.

Good blocks of oak it was I split,
As large around as the chopping block;
And every piece I squarely hit
Fell splinterless as a cloven rock.
The blows that a life of self-control
Spares to strike for the common good,
That day, giving a loose my soul,
I spent on the unimportant wood.

The sun was warm but the wind was chill.
You know how it is with an April day
When the sun is out and the wind is still,
You're one month on in the middle of May.
But if you so much as dare to speak,
A cloud comes over the sunlit arch,
A wind comes off a frozen peak,
And you're two months back in the middle of March.

A bluebird comes tenderly up to alight
And turns to the wind to unruffle a plume,
His song so pitched as not to excite
A single flower as yet to bloom.
It is snowing a flake; and he half knew
Winter was only playing possum.
Except in color he isn't blue,
But he wouldn't advise a thing to blossom.

The water for which we may have to look
In summertime with a witching wand,
In every wheelrut's now a brook,
In every print of a hoof a pond.
Be glad of water, but don't forget
The lurking frost in the earth beneath
That will steal forth after the sun is set
And show on the water its crystal teeth.

The time when most I loved my task
The two must make me love it more
By coming with what they came to ask.
You'd think I never had felt before
The weight of an ax-head poised aloft,
The grip of earth on outspread feet,
The life of muscles rocking soft
And smooth and moist in vernal heat.

Out of the wood two hulking tramps
(From sleeping God knows where last night,
But not long since in the lumber camps).
They thought all chopping was theirs of right.
Men of the woods and lumberjacks,
They judged me by their appropriate tool.
Except as a fellow handled an ax
They had no way of knowing a fool.

Nothing on either side was said.
They knew they had but to stay their stay
And all their logic would fill my head:
As that I had no right to play
With what was another man's work for gain.
My right might be love but theirs was need.
And where the two exist in twain
Theirs was the better right--agreed.

But yield who will to their separation,
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes.
- Robert Frost

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 2578
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:02 am
Location: Zandvoort, The Netherlands

Re: Zen Practice

Post by fuki » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:24 pm

[james] wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:37 am

It may not be the experience of zazen but it is the experience of the idea of zazen.

Just as we may talk about the menu without having tasted the food described in the menu, the menu has suggestive value to us because we have tasted other foods. We carry memories of food experiences in the form of ideas of food and look to a menu as a reminder of those earlier experiences and as a hint of possibly fulfilling future experience.

Talk about zazen is like the menu. I think that we all have an inkling of something experienced, sometimes well hidden or just barely sensed or even just beginning to blossom, and we can be drawn to talk of zazen or the idea of zazen for encouragement and perhaps even nourishment.j
Yes ofcourse Brother! :111:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Spike
Posts: 375
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:35 am

Re: Zen Practice

Post by Spike » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:07 am

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:31 am
Emptiness:

"Some 15 years ago a friend at another forum has asked me a question.I was a beginner at the time.

The reflection of the moon on the water is it real or unreal?

This question helped me to understand the concept of emptiness."


- from my previous post
for a better understanding of emptiness
Your response?

Your new and better understanding?

For the benefit of all beings
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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