KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:17 pm

do u consider Siddhartha, Bodhidharma, Joshu, Xu Yun, Hakuin, Dogen, and all the zen practitioners, and masters dreaming?
if so what is the reason you are interested in Buddhism, zen?
of course not.in a dream you see one thing and it symbolize another thing.in the eyes of an enlightened you see one thing yet can easily understand about the other so can see one in another.the classical form of enlightenment.i believe you can see countless things in just one.
so isn't it look like the same as in dreaming?the dream of a zen master?

i'm no expert.
hello mom

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:48 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:17 pm
do u consider Siddhartha, Bodhidharma, Joshu, Xu Yun, Hakuin, Dogen, and all the zen practitioners, and masters dreaming?
if so what is the reason you are interested in Buddhism, zen?
of course not.in a dream you see one thing and it symbolize another thing.in the eyes of an enlightened you see one thing yet can easily understand about the other so can see one in another.the classical form of enlightenment.i believe you can see countless things in just one.
so isn't it look like the same as in dreaming?the dream of a zen master?

i'm no expert.
Me either, but I believe skillful means as employed by a zen master don't compare, or have anything to do with dreams or sleep. You have brought this up in a general way before:
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:17 pm
Yet for my thoughts emptiness which is the way of eagle; is just (like) sleeping mode.
I see it differently: it (realization/actualization) is about being fully awake, fully alive.

Sorry, I may have this wrong. Sometimes have difficulty understanding you. Something like this is beyond me, for example:
loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:17 pm
do zen masters are wild characters generally i don't know
may be in out looking inside i believe %100 cotton

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:05 pm

nevermind spike.generally when you don't understand me i don't understand you. :D
hello mom

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:39 pm

KENSHO.?may be the dream of a zen master
may be in out looking inside i believe %100 cotton
Not kensho, that’s for sure.
thank you friends, i fully understand what you say.
please allow me to totally disagree with your opinions.
we are not talking about a mine opinion,
but a zen position.
maybe, this thread should be closed.
im sorry to have not answered larry question, im sure to try later.
enver, in zen, you are welcomed but seen, and your thoughts are different to zen, do you realise this?
you have all the freedom, and creativity, to form anything you wish.
zen folks stick to a few directions.
and enlightenment is one of those, if not the principal.
im sorry to say, this topic made a few doubts, so let's end it easy.
thank you, very much, all.
love u.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:45 pm

:113:
hello mom

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:45 am

cool, i love your humour.
:557:
:115:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Dan74
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:50 am

Hi Folks... :waving:

In response to the talk about dreaming, seems to me dreaming is the normal way we function, while kensho is waking up. Usually we fall back asleep, but maybe a little less deep, with the knowledge of the waking state at the back of our mind.

Then from our dream state, we can recall the kensho, maybe that helps prompt waking up again, or can be another dream, if we glorify it, build things around it.

I feel embarrassed seeing my words quoted when I am probably the weakest Zen student around. I try not to speak too much nonsense but I have no attainment or credentials. I probably did have a waking up experience some 9 years ago, but now it is a dream to speak about it. 99% of the time, I am as asleep as most. What remains is the knowledge that it is possible to wake up.

What I find valuable are prompters that jolt us from this dream state. They can be lots of things in real life, but online sometimes reading an account like the OP's can do it. Or a teaching. Something that pulls me out of the solipsistic mind-prison and out into the open.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Larry » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:32 am

:bow2:

I’m sorry I never got to see our banter in the technical update thread :D

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:51 am

Spike wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:47 pm
That is as may be, but for me, you're not the one entitled to ask it.
Why is that, would you say.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:16 am

bokki wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:15 pm

james.
There is no door in shikantaza.
Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Shikantaza cannot be problematic.
How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?
do you remember when you started shikantaza, was it the same as it is now?
It has only ever been shikantaza, and yes, much the same. More settled now, more assured, largely beyond doubts.
bokki wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:15 pm
Not kensho, that’s for sure.
well, that is what im talking about.
what is it then, james?
if you have stepped off the 100-foot pole, please say what is the purpose of Buddhism.
At some point, let's call it the top of the 💯 foot pole, you find that there is only one thing to do. The leap of courage beckons. Some claim that shikantaza is a post kensho "practice". I don't accept this view. It doesn't require kensho to recognize that zen practice is a deliberate life of courage. Kensho may make that suddenly obvious. Shikantaza is constantly showing and making this real. It is an endless challenge. The purpose of Buddhism is not something I think about though I am very grateful to Gautama the Buddha and all who have followed and are following in his footsteps. I was recently in Bodh Gaya and sat with other pilgrims at the Mahabodhi Temple, an ocean of samadhi and devotion.
1DCC9478-FF79-465D-8CCE-2B528EDE59B1.jpeg
1DCC9478-FF79-465D-8CCE-2B528EDE59B1.jpeg (643.2 KiB) Viewed 339 times

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:08 pm

[james] wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:16 am
bokki wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:15 pm

if you have stepped off the 100-foot pole, please say what is the purpose of Buddhism.
At some point, let's call it the top of the 💯 foot pole, you find that there is only one thing to do. The leap of courage beckons. Some claim that shikantaza is a post kensho "practice". I don't accept this view. It doesn't require kensho to recognize that zen practice is a deliberate life of courage.
As per Christian Humphreys, after climbing the "thought" pole, this describes the existential leap from thought to direct awareness, i.e., kensho, or insight into true nature. It doesn't have anything to do with concepts like (living a life of) courage, etc.

Kensho-jobutsu--self-realization, becoming a buddha, becoming aware of identity with buddha nature, etc.--is the goal of zen training.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:49 pm

Some claim that shikantaza is a post kensho "practice". I don't accept this view.
neither do i.
It doesn't require kensho to recognize that zen practice is a deliberate life of courage.
i understand what you are saying, but do not agree. so, basically, you are saying that an insight into one's own nature
is ...
what?
a joke?
ocean of samadhi and devotion.
a great pic, truly, but the purpose..? feel good? or realise ones true ground?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Dan74 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:59 am

I don't really see the value in commenting on other people's practice. For one thing it's very hard to gauge from a few words on the screen. And another is that we have no clue as to their background, where they are coming from and what it truly means to them. Maybe most importantly, we are all beginners regardless where we see ourselves, so should know our place.

Sharing is good. Supporting is even better. And maybe even rejoicing in this wonderful practice we have inherited.

Or am I seeing this completely wrong? Wouldn't be the first time.

_/|\_

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:28 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:59 am
I don't really see the value in commenting on other people's practice. For one thing it's very hard to gauge from a few words on the screen. And another is that we have no clue as to their background, where they are coming from and what it truly means to them. Maybe most importantly, we are all beginners regardless where we see ourselves, so should know our place.

Sharing is good. Supporting is even better. And maybe even rejoicing in this wonderful practice we have inherited.

Or am I seeing this completely wrong? Wouldn't be the first time.

_/|\_
Very supportive.Thanks.
hello mom

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:24 pm

Spike wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:08 pm
As per Christian Humphreys, after climbing the "thought" pole, this describes the existential leap from thought to direct awareness, i.e., kensho, or insight into true nature. It doesn't have anything to do with concepts like (living a life of) courage, etc.

Kensho-jobutsu--self-realization, becoming a buddha, becoming aware of identity with buddha nature, etc.--is the goal of zen training.
Living a life of courage is not a concept.
“the existential leap from thought to direct awareness” is a concept. Direct awareness ... ??? Is there any other kind?
I would also say that “the goal of zen training” is another concept, perhaps useful in the short term but best put aside before too long. As I see it, having a goal in zen practice is essentially a rejection of present conditions that are themselves the field of zen practice, i.e. inherently contradictory.
Christmas Humphreys by the way.

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:40 pm

[james] wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:24 pm
Spike wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:08 pm
As per Christian Humphreys, after climbing the "thought" pole, this describes the existential leap from thought to direct awareness, i.e., kensho, or insight into true nature. It doesn't have anything to do with concepts like (living a life of) courage, etc.

Kensho-jobutsu--self-realization, becoming a buddha, becoming aware of identity with buddha nature, etc.--is the goal of zen training.
Living a life of courage is not a concept.
If it is your plan or intention then of course it is.
[james] wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:24 pm
“the existential leap from thought to direct awareness” is a concept. Direct awareness ... ??? Is there any other kind?
Well, for instance, like dim awareness . . .
[james] wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:24 pm
I would also say that “the goal of zen training” is another concept, perhaps useful in the short term but best put aside before too long. As I see it, having a goal in zen practice is essentially a rejection of present conditions that are themselves the field of zen practice, i.e. inherently contradictory.
This would be a training matter between you and your teacher.
[james] wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:24 pm
Christmas Humphreys by the way.
Thanks, and Merry Christmas, by the way!

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:48 pm

bokki wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:49 pm
It doesn't require kensho to recognize that zen practice is a deliberate life of courage.
i understand what you are saying, but do not agree. so, basically, you are saying that an insight into one's own nature
is ...
what?
a joke?
I’m saying that recognition of zen practice as a deliberate life of courage and insight into one’s nature are mutually bound.
a great pic, truly, but the purpose..? feel good? or realise ones true ground?
I didn’t have the impression that any of the thousands present were there to feel good. Maybe some were. Overwhelming, it seemed to me, people were fully intent, in a multitude of ways and expressions, on remembering and celebrating the World Honored One. An immense, silent respect permeated the vicinity of the Mahabodhi Temple.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:54 pm

I would also say that “the goal of zen training” is another concept, perhaps useful in the short term but best put aside before too long. As I see it, having a goal in zen practice is essentially a rejection of present conditions that are themselves the field of zen practice, i.e. inherently contradictory.
if i ask what is the goal of Buddhism, and you say no goal, may i ask
why did Sidhartta sit so long under a tree,
why did Bodhidharma come from the west,
why did Xu Yun almost drown and die,
why did Dogen go to China?
?
do you think that they thought there is nothing to gain?
no enlightenment,
the thing all sutras are made of?
so, are we to sit quietly, and imagine we are full?
if so, why zen, or Buddhism in the first place?
lets just all seek nothing, and maybe make a teaching about not seeking.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:00 pm

Spike wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:40 pm
[james] wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:24 pm
Living a life of courage is not a concept.
If it is your plan or intention then of course it is.
This returns to the hundred foot pole.
“How does he go further from the top of a hundred foot pole.”
There is no longer any plan or intention.

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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:24 pm

bokki wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:54 pm
I would also say that “the goal of zen training” is another concept, perhaps useful in the short term but best put aside before too long. As I see it, having a goal in zen practice is essentially a rejection of present conditions that are themselves the field of zen practice, i.e. inherently contradictory.
if i ask what is the goal of Buddhism, and you say no goal, may i ask
why did Sidhartta sit so long under a tree,
why did Bodhidharma come from the west,
why did Xu Yun almost drown and die,
why did Dogen go to China?
?
do you think that they thought there is nothing to gain?
no enlightenment,
the thing all sutras are made of?
so, are we to sit quietly, and imagine we are full?
if so, why zen, or Buddhism in the first place?
lets just all seek nothing, and maybe make a teaching about not seeking.
I can only refer to my own limited experience and understanding and so have nothing to say about what they thought. Dogen, Xu Yun, Bodhidharma, Siddhartha did as they did because there was no other choice for them given their circumstances.

We can all sit quietly and imagine we are full, and just all sit seeking nothing ... nothing wrong with that. Accept that it won’t last and be comfortable. Sit without expectation, welcoming what ever arises and seeing it fade away.

Why zen or Buddhism in the first place? To show us the necessity and means of letting go of our fear aka. our suffocating self attachment.

Like I said, my own limited experience and understanding.

:558:

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