KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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Larry
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Larry » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:45 pm

[james], I love the gentleness of your responses.

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:33 pm

james
I can only refer to my own limited experience and understanding
i gather that is so very obvious in my posts, that i need not repeat. exactly what i mean about my understanding.
we are only just discussing, 4 the benefit of understanding.
have nothing to say about what they thought. Dogen, Xu Yun, Bodhidharma, Siddhartha did as they did because there was no other choice for them given their circumstances.
could they not have just stayed home? what made them waste prodigious efforts, searching for enlightenment, or to spread it?
Bodhicitta is a spontaneous wish to attain enlightenment motivated by great compassion for all sentient beings.

suffocating self-attachment is my middle name, fear, not so much, id rather say reckless.

btw, have you, at any time, answered the 100-foot pole koan to a zen teacher?
how would your empty breakfast look like, after stepping off the pole?

friends, do not take my words as something wise, or assertive. we are here to discuss, joke, and learn. nothing serious.

(ps thanx 4 Sasaki teisho links, spike.thnx)
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:12 pm

Spike wrote: Just copy your comment about kensho being a dream, send it via email to the contact address at the websites, and then, maybe, share the response, if you get one?
I've made a contact with
Rev. Genjo Marinello, Abbot
Seattle Zen Temple
Dai Bai Zan Cho Bo Zen Ji
www.choboji.org

The master is a very gentle, open heart, direct and sincere.I feel honored.

Anyway, he has answered my question.
and say "yes" about my previous thought about the classical form of enlightenment.

Just to inform...
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:56 pm

And what was the response to your statement that kensho was the dream of a zen master?

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:58 pm

thank you enver, very much indeed, for contacting genjo. just to be clear, you asked him if kensho is a dream? yes?
and say "yes" about my previous thought about the classical form of enlightenment.
what is the classical, or modern form of enlightenment, please?
maybe, you could say what your question was, so marinello said "yes"?
' kensho..maybe a dream of a zen master."?
?
just asking, sir,
could you be a bit more specific?
thank you very much.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Spike wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:56 pm
And what was the response to your statement that kensho was the dream of a zen master?
All is true he said.
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:08 pm

bokki wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:58 pm
thank you enver, very much indeed, for contacting genjo. just to be clear, you asked him if kensho is a dream? yes?
and say "yes" about my previous thought about the classical form of enlightenment.
what is the classical, or modern form of enlightenment, please?
maybe, you could say what your question was, so marinello said "yes"?
' kensho..maybe a dream of a zen master."?
?
just asking, sir,
could you be a bit more specific?
thank you very much.
May be you should ask your own question
to the master as spike has said.
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:12 pm

Hey bokki, no need to do that.

I believe we have a similar understanding on this. No need to go further.

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:46 pm

No need to go further.
ok, yes, thank you Spike, message understood.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by bokki » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 am

There is no door in shikantaza.
Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Shikantaza cannot be problematic.
How does he go further from the top of a 100 foot pole?
having thought about your words
ill talk about my sorry history.
i started shikantaza with a foolish notion,
not to think.
There is no door in shikantaza.
Shikantaza cannot be faked.
Shikantaza cannot be problematic.
having thought about your words,
karmically,
i do not agree.
shikantaza is a smile when one begins,
and a deep samadhi when practised long.


james?
well, luv 4 all of u sattvas.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by [james] » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:50 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 am
having thought about your words,
karmically,
i do not agree.
shikantaza is a smile when one begins,
and a deep samadhi when practised long.
I don’t see disagreement ... yet.
If, when, the smile and samadhi are long gone, where is shikantaza?
Exactly now, no difference. Once seen, it gently absorbs you.
“Resistance is futile.”

:558:

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:32 pm

I decided to return to the discussion.

In answer to this question: Yes.

Where I have been? Optioned into retirement by "market forces" but still getting job offers in spite of the fact its more more costly for me to work than not. Caring for the sick is job #1 now. I think about making pottery and poetry, but usually simply pick up a guitar. My wife wants to walk across Spain. Her boss wants to walk across Japan. I want to circle Mount Kailash. Not all these things can come to pass.

You might try to take the Kensho out of Zen,
But you can't take the Zen out of Kensho.
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

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Larry
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Larry » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:13 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:32 pm
My wife wants to walk across Spain. Her boss wants to walk across Japan. I want to circle Mount Kailash.
Aren’t things good enough right where they/you are? Or am I just being lazy? :D

Welcome back :hatsoff:

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:34 pm

Larry wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:13 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:32 pm
My wife wants to walk across Spain. Her boss wants to walk across Japan. I want to circle Mount Kailash.
Aren’t things good enough right where they/you are? Or am I just being lazy? :D

Welcome back :hatsoff:
Thank You Larry! Well, yes things are good enough, in fact they are great; but they are also horrible, and tragic, a disaster. Life dishes it all out at once. None of which explains why we wander as we do. There is plenty of reason not to harbor desire for temporal and transitory things, if that's what you mean? I would agree with THAT completely. We are booking to walk the El Camino with our party of 6 on Spring Break just the same...
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

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Larry
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Larry » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:14 am

Guess your signature says it all :chicken:

Enjoy your walk :D

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KeithA
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by KeithA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:40 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:32 pm
I decided to return to the discussion.

In answer to this question: Yes.

Where I have been? Optioned into retirement by "market forces" but still getting job offers in spite of the fact its more more costly for me to work than not. Caring for the sick is job #1 now. I think about making pottery and poetry, but usually simply pick up a guitar. My wife wants to walk across Spain. Her boss wants to walk across Japan. I want to circle Mount Kailash. Not all these things can come to pass.

You might try to take the Kensho out of Zen,
But you can't take the Zen out of Kensho.
Good to see you again, Eric!
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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desert_woodworker
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:32 am

I'd say the body changes and is freed in major fashion. Awakening has little if anything to do with "mind" (which has been a delusion).

There is no mind, for one who is awake.

Others here may wish to expand on this, but I think it's good to leave it in simple form. Yet, come all ye comers... . :bow2:

--Joe
bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm
would you write anything on your thoughts, or experience, of kensho? i would be grateful.
thank you.

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Spike
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Spike » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:12 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:32 am
"mind" . . . has been a delusion
The term delusion usually refers to a psychotic disorder of the mind, that is, produced/apprehended by the mind. If there is no mind, then it cannot be produced.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by Great Sage EofH » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:07 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:32 am
I'd say the body changes and is freed in major fashion. Awakening has little if anything to do with "mind" (which has been a delusion).

There is no mind, for one who is awake.

Others here may wish to expand on this, but I think it's good to leave it in simple form. Yet, come all ye comers... . :bow2:

--Joe
bokki wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 pm
would you write anything on your thoughts, or experience, of kensho? i would be grateful.
thank you.
Dōgen Zenji called it "dropping away of body and mind" - Joe says "There is no mind, for one who is awake" - I think bokki's question is rather important, and it's a complex question due to the many names and words that are used to describe "kensho" "satori" "samadhi" "awakening" enlightenment" "nirvana" etc. etc. Some of these language translations don't do justice to what is fundamentally indescribable. Some description are shabby. You can Google all these words and read all kinds of explanations in many different schools of thoughts but it always boils back down to the fact that the topic eludes intellectual curiosity. You can't formulate a "theory" of kensho because it can't be said what it is. And yet.. And yet it's possible to say what it's not. Not attachment, clinging. Not aversion, running away. Not ignorance. It's seeing things clearly for what they are. There are no "thoughts" acting as mediators between you and your experience. There is no dichotomy between "you" and "I" and yet things are what they are. Ultimately there are no "things" to be thought of. Sadly, what happens is people learn all about it from books, talks, videos, and get a set idea in their mind, and become attached to a view. That's an intellectual form of enlightenment which leads to yet another trap. We exist as human beings in a given time and space. To see this in it's greatest immediacy is to see how utterly finite our experience time/space is. Utterly. There is a mystery and paradox here, because to see "what is" in this "moment" is also transferable to seeing "everything" in "all moments"... but it's also beside the point. What is the main point? What is it that the seer sees?

:wool:
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.” - Gautama Buddha, Nālakasutta

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loves' the unjust
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Re: KENSHO. Your experience, your thoughts..?

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:00 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote: Dōgen Zenji called it "dropping away of body and mind" - Joe says "There is no mind, for one who is awake" - I think bokki's question is rather important, and it's a complex question due to the many names and words that are used to describe "kensho" "satori" "samadhi" "awakening" enlightenment" "nirvana" etc. etc. Some of these language translations don't do justice to what is fundamentally indescribable. Some description are shabby. You can Google all these words and read all kinds of explanations in many different schools of thoughts but it always boils back down to the fact that the topic eludes intellectual curiosity. You can't formulate a "theory" of kensho because it can't be said what it is. And yet.. And yet it's possible to say what it's not. Not attachment, clinging. Not aversion, running away. Not ignorance. It's seeing things clearly for what they are. There are no "thoughts" acting as mediators between you and your experience. There is no dichotomy between "you" and "I" and yet things are what they are. Ultimately there are no "things" to be thought of. Sadly, what happens is people learn all about it from books, talks, videos, and get a set idea in their mind, and become attached to a view. That's an intellectual form of enlightenment which leads to yet another trap. We exist as human beings in a given time and space. To see this in it's greatest immediacy is to see how utterly finite our experience time/space is. Utterly. There is a mystery and paradox here, because to see "what is" in this "moment" is also transferable to seeing "everything" in "all moments"... but it's also beside the point. What is the main point? What is it that the seer sees?

:wool:
I love the gentleness of your response, as Larry says.

Larry also has said this saying that;
My religion is kindness. Dalai Lama

I think gentleness is the main point we should look for.you may call it spirituality, emptiness, mahakasyapa, love or whatever.in gentleness the ego, you yourself has gone and you find yourself in the whats in front of you.you become the other. By no mind this is possible.mind becomes like a screen.how much not having thought that much one becomes a master.and moreoverly how much not having thought that much raise in the degree of your awakening.when not a single thought/seperation between you and the other, nirvana lies somewhere there i believe.mind like a mirror is somewhat about this.

Whats nteresting is this you can achieve/percieve these things with only mind.

I'm not a master.Thousands of thoughts passing through in my mind during a day with its components.

Long way to go
being a master,
rise in the degree,
nirvana

All's about one single thought!
gentleness and frustration in different form of coctails is my present psychology

Thank you, dad.

onefrogj@yahoo.com

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