Equanimity

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KeithA
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Equanimity

Post by KeithA » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:54 pm

Hi all,

Dan mentioned the Simlle of the Saw in another thread, and I would think that the subject of equanimity is deserving of it's own thread:

From the Theravada tradition we have this story:
The Parable of the Saw
"Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves.

"Monks, if you should keep this instruction on the Parable of the Saw constantly in mind, do you see any mode of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?"

"No, Lord."

"Therefore, monks, you should keep this instruction on the Parable of the Saw constantly in mind. That will conduce to your well-being and happiness for long indeed."

That is what the Blessed One said. Delighted, those monks acclaimed the Teaching of the Blessed One.
From here: Kakacupama Sutta

In my own tradition, we have question 3 of Ko Bongs Three Gates, which feels similar to me:
Seventh Gate: Ko Bong's Three Gates
1. The sun in the sky shines everywhere. Why does a cloud obscure it?

2. Everyone has a shadow following them. How can you not step on your shadow?

3. The whole universe is on fire. Through what kind of samadhi can you escape being burned?

Commentary: The sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains and waters - everything is complete. One mind appears, big mistake. One mind disappears, then seeing and hearing become the truth. Don't make anything. Just see, just hear, just do it.
From here: Seung Sahns Twelve Gates

How do these stories inform your practice?

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Equanimity

Post by loves' the unjust » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:10 am

Keith wrote: Don't make anything. Just see, just hear, just do it.
agree.here.

My viewpoint on the subject is
You don't think but you live
This is crazy
The esprit of heavy metal
Jesus was crazy too.
sum is the same

This mind is not buddha
hello mom

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Larry
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Re: Equanimity

Post by Larry » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:15 am

Equanimity seems to grow naturally over the years.

My daughter says “It’s just because you’re getting old Dad” :lol:

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 am

The Parable of the Saw
no. no. no.
what a foolish game of black humor....well.
do you see any mode of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?
lol, its not speech, but a saw! lol
That will conduce to your well-being and happiness for long indeed.
well...under a saw, i hope it is quick.

a deranged one attacks your dearest...and you are going to meditate, not raise an eyebrow?
what a joke of a teaching..reminds me of the one: all beings are your mother. hey, ebola, me mom.

ok, ok.
ill answer, just 4 u.
1. The sun in the sky shines everywhere. Why does a cloud obscure it?
i like a tan.
2. Everyone has a shadow following them. How can you not step on your shadow?
i run fast.
3. The whole universe is on fire. Through what kind of samadhi can you escape being burned?
trough the melting pot samadhi.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: Equanimity

Post by [james] » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:28 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 am
The Parable of the Saw
no. no. no.
what a foolish game of black humor....well.
I see it as an invitation to use your imagination as a tool to develop your capacity of equanimity.
bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 am
do you see any mode of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?
lol, its not speech, but a saw! lol
If you can place your “self” as equanimous under a saw how untroublesome are mere words.
bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 am
That will conduce to your well-being and happiness for long indeed.
well...under a saw, i hope it is quick.
As I read your words, it seems to me that you are already disturbed by simply thinking of this possibility. Similar harrowing, gruesome circumstances are the reality of many people, many beings, every day. It won’t be quick.
bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 am
a deranged one attacks your dearest...and you are going to meditate, not raise an eyebrow?
what a joke of a teaching...
Equanimous does not mean unresponsive.

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:15 pm

james, just to ask you..ok...?
As I read your words, it seems to me that you are already disturbed by simply thinking of this possibility. Similar harrowing, gruesome circumstances are the reality of many people, many beings, every day. It won’t be quick.
how is Equanimity to help one......lol, so many foolish zen teachings, jumping out of the woodwork, here is another, ace,
Equanimity
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: Equanimity

Post by Spike » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:35 pm

It is a mistake to always take stuff literally.

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[james]
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Re: Equanimity

Post by [james] » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:05 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:15 pm
james, just to ask you..ok...?
how is Equanimity to help one......lol, so many foolish zen teachings, jumping out of the woodwork, here is another, ace,
Equanimity
So, you can’t do equanimous, and even more, it is troublesome to contemplate. Am I reading you correctly?
Perhaps you see equanimity, and the cultivation of equanimity, as a false refuge from the harsh realities of this human realm of being. It could be so ... hiding, safe and secure, under the blankie of equanimity. It could also be an energy of courage and confidence in meeting and investigating this unconditional arising.

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:48 am

Perhaps you see equanimity, and the cultivation of equanimity, as a false refuge from the harsh realities of this human realm of being. It could be so ... hiding, safe and secure, under the blankie of equanimity.
very well said.
It could also be an energy of courage and confidence in meeting and investigating this unconditional arising.
very well said.

all i am saying, is that the nature of our lives will force us to sometimes lose equanimity. i am surely wrong.
i suppose that there are bodhisattvas, deep in the mountains, practising deep "no-worry", "i don't care", "peace" and seclusion.
that they have no furrow on their forehead and enjoy absolute peace, on their way to total extinction.

other than that, i am sure i talk 2 much.
dont call me Sue, plz.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: Equanimity

Post by Spike » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:53 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:48 am
all i am saying, is that the nature of our lives will force us to sometimes lose equanimity. i am surely wrong.
i suppose that there are bodhisattvas, deep in the mountains, practising deep "no-worry", "i don't care", "peace" and seclusion.
that they have no furrow on their forehead and enjoy absolute peace, on their way to total extinction.
KeithA wrote: "We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves."
The group referred to in this case is "monks". Indeed, they do live in different circumstances and aspire to keep different vows than us.
bokki wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:48 am
dont call me Sue, plz.
You tell'em!

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Dan74
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Re: Equanimity

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:48 am

bokki wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:48 am
Perhaps you see equanimity, and the cultivation of equanimity, as a false refuge from the harsh realities of this human realm of being. It could be so ... hiding, safe and secure, under the blankie of equanimity.
very well said.
It could also be an energy of courage and confidence in meeting and investigating this unconditional arising.
very well said.

all i am saying, is that the nature of our lives will force us to sometimes lose equanimity. i am surely wrong.
i suppose that there are bodhisattvas, deep in the mountains, practising deep "no-worry", "i don't care", "peace" and seclusion.
that they have no furrow on their forehead and enjoy absolute peace, on their way to total extinction.

other than that, i am sure i talk 2 much.
dont call me Sue, plz.
I don't know if it's "the nature of our lives". I lose equanimity all the time, but when I look into it, I (sometimes) see the karmic causes and they are really about me, the conditioning, rather than those externals.

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:11 am

thank you all, an inspiring thread about equanimity. thnx Keith, and all.
do u remember Hakuins doubt about Yantous scream?
a lot of fine words read here.
i just had to poke the ashes, and, lo, a smouldering one.
"the nature of our lives". I lose equanimity all the time, but when I look into it, I (sometimes) see the karmic causes and they are really about me, the conditioning, rather than those externals.
externals?..plz explain, thnx Dan, what are externals?
btw, if u find my equanimity, plz return it. ill pay the finders fee.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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KeithA
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Re: Equanimity

Post by KeithA » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:15 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:54 am
The Parable of the Saw
no. no. no.
what a foolish game of black humor....well.
do you see any mode of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?
lol, its not speech, but a saw! lol
That will conduce to your well-being and happiness for long indeed.
well...under a saw, i hope it is quick.

a deranged one attacks your dearest...and you are going to meditate, not raise an eyebrow?
what a joke of a teaching..reminds me of the one: all beings are your mother. hey, ebola, me mom.
Ah, the point has been missed. :107:

Suzuki Roshi said: "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities,
but in the expert's there are few.
"
ok, ok.
ill answer, just 4 u.
1. The sun in the sky shines everywhere. Why does a cloud obscure it?
i like a tan.
2. Everyone has a shadow following them. How can you not step on your shadow?
i run fast.
3. The whole universe is on fire. Through what kind of samadhi can you escape being burned?
trough the melting pot samadhi.
The point of that part of the post was to look at the 3rd question. But, to get an answer, you must see your teacher. I am just a lousy student. :106:

_/|\_
Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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Dan74
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Re: Equanimity

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:17 pm

I don't have to explain externals to you, bokki. You know how to be reactive and must have some insight into the processes that lead to that.

As for finding your misplaced equanimity, it's probably at the same Lost&Found as mine. Once I make it there, I will ask for yours. They might require an ID, though, so not sure if they let me have it. Hopefully you will have picked yours up by then.

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:37 pm

if you find it, i am willing to share..50/50..?
About externals, you said it..
they are really about me
i don't think you know how much i agree.
internals?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: Equanimity

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:04 am

bokki wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:11 am
do u remember Hakuins doubt about Yantous scream?
No I don’t.
Never heard of it in fact.
Where might I find out?

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lindama
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Re: Equanimity

Post by lindama » Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:32 am

bokki wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:15 pm
james, just to ask you..ok...?
As I read your words, it seems to me that you are already disturbed by simply thinking of this possibility. Similar harrowing, gruesome circumstances are the reality of many people, many beings, every day. It won’t be quick.
how is Equanimity to help one......lol, so many foolish zen teachings, jumping out of the woodwork, here is another, ace,
Equanimity
As I see it Bokki, this is not a zen teaching. The parable is from the Teravada tradition. I don't see an invitation. I see a prescription to fit oneself into an ideal. we can't wear clothes that don't fit authentically. From that perspective, it is a zen teaching. Zen calls us to our own life, not an imitation. so, teaching can't sustain itself. Equanimity doesn't imply the absence of thoughts, words or actions tho it may appear so..... just like your machinations don't imply the absence of equanimity. :111: It comes down to who takes the bait....

linda

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:29 am

james,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantou_Quanhuo
HAKUIN;
When I was nineteen I happened to read the [Wu-chia] cheng-tsung tsan, in which the story of how the Master Yen-t'ou was killed by bandits and how his cries at the time resounded for over three li is described. I wondered why such an enlightened monk was unable to escape the swords of thieves. If such a thing could happen to a man who was like a unicorn or phoenix among monks, a dragon in the sea of Buddhism, how was I to escape the staves of the demons of hell after I died? What use was there in studying Zen? What a fraud Buddhism! How I regretted that I had cast myself into this band of strange and evil men. What was I to do now? So great was my distress that for three days I could not eat and for a long time my faith in Buddhism was completely lost. Statues of the Buddha and the sacred scriptures looked like mud and dirt to me. It seemed much better to read lay works, to amuse myself with poetry and prose, and thus to a small degree to alleviate my distress.
https://terebess.hu/zen/hakuin1.html
this is Yantou, in jap Ganto, from Mumonkan case 13
One day Tokusan came down the hall carrying his bowls. Seppo asked him, "Old Master, the bell has not yet rung nor the drum sounded. Where are you going with your bowls?" Tokusan immediately went back to his room. Seppo told this to Ganto. Ganto said, "Great Tokusan though he is, he has not yet realized the last word."

Hearing of this, Tokusan sent his attendant to summon Ganto and then asked him,"Don't you approve of this old monk?" Ganto secretly whispered his intention. Tokusan remained silent.

Sure enough, the next day when Tokusan ascended the rostrum, his talk was quite a bit different from usual. Ganto went to the front of the Zen hall and rubbing his hands together, laughed loudly and said, "Wonderful! How happy I am that our Old Man has realized the last word. From now on he'll be subject to no one on earth."
you can google if you like.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: Equanimity

Post by bokki » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:51 am

Linda,
:115:
i wish i had some wisdom to talk gently, powerfully, to the point and beyond, in an unassuming but forceful way.
like you.
im happy to understand all u say.
:bow2:
:namaste:
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: Equanimity

Post by [james] » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:47 pm

bokki wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:29 am
you can google if you like.
Ok, never thought of that, thanks.
Great doubt and great faith are the nourishments of equanimity, it seems to me. I wonder what Hakuin had to say about equanimity? Google? ... “Is that so?”

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