Repentance Practices

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:39 pm

just a thought,
is it of old,
or beginningless?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by loves' the unjust » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:55 pm


All the good karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless sharing, love, and knowledge,
Born of my body, mouth, thought and the universe,
I now confess openly and fully.
All the good karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless sharing, love, and knowledge,
Born of my body, mouth, thought and the universe,
I now reject openly and fully.


:D
hello mom

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[james]
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by [james] » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:25 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:55 pm

All the good karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless sharing, love, and knowledge,
Born of my body, mouth, thought and the universe,
I now confess openly and fully.
All the good karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless sharing, love, and knowledge,
Born of my body, mouth, thought and the universe,
I now reject openly and fully.
This thread concerns repentance practice.
Self rejection, while perhaps attractive, is futile.
If you wish to pursue your fantasy, start a new thread.

cooper

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:52 pm

From Dai Bosatsu Mountain Monastery:

"Purification:
All the evil karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginingless greed, anger and delusion,
Born of my body, mouth, and thought,
I now confess and purify them all."

Title and last line refer to and obviously emphasize purification in the context of the whole verse. Some translations don't even mention this. So: do you think purification is implied in the concept of confession and therefore not needed to be mentioned separately? If so, and its mention is redundant, what to make of it? Is it beneficial for the individual to announce purification of his or her karma?

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[james]
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by [james] » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:15 pm

Emmet wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:09 pm
THE REPENTANCE GATHA
All evil actions committed by me since time immemorial,
stemming from greed, anger, and delusion,
arising from body, speech and mind,
I now repent having committed.
Spike wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:52 pm
From Dai Bosatsu Mountain Monastery:

"Purification:
All the evil karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginingless greed, anger and delusion,
Born of my body, mouth, and thought,
I now confess and purify them all."

Title and last line refer to and obviously emphasize purification in the context of the whole verse. Some translations don't even mention this. So: do you think purification is implied in the concept of confession and therefore not needed to be mentioned separately? If so, and its mention is redundant, what to make of it? Is it beneficial for the individual to announce purification of his or her karma?
I see that the translation quoted by Emmet refers to actions rather than karma. I think this is much more immediate and personal and is more in keeping with sincere (rather than formal) sentiments of repentance. If the repentance or confession is not closely bound to the thought, word or deed it is lacking (inevitably, ??) for both parties. “Karma” is too vague and has too much wiggle room for a meaningful repentance, it seems to me.

As for purification, that is not for any one of us to say. The harm has been done. It’s out and about and the karmic consequences are unfolding. It can’t be taken back. The best I can hope for is that, through repentance ( though I think that through mindful awareness would be more effective) I might purify my tendencies from now on. To claim purification after the fact ... well, it seems more than a bit arrogant.

p.s. “since time immemorial” or even “since of old” is also hard for me to swallow. What do I know of time immemorial and why should I assume that present habits and patterns are inadequate to the needs of meaningful repentance? It sounds too much of padding and window dressing.

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:12 pm

Emmet wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:09 pm
THE REPENTANCE GATHA
All evil actions committed by me since time immemorial,
stemming from greed, anger, and delusion,
arising from body, speech and mind,
I now repent having committed.
Spike wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:52 pm
From Dai Bosatsu Mountain Monastery:

"Purification:
All the evil karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginingless greed, anger and delusion,
Born of my body, mouth, and thought,
I now confess and purify them all."

Title and last line refer to and obviously emphasize purification in the context of the whole verse. Some translations don't even mention this. So: do you think purification is implied in the concept of confession and therefore not needed to be mentioned separately? If so, and its mention is redundant, what to make of it? Is it beneficial for the individual to announce purification of his or her karma?
[james] wrote: I see that the translation quoted by Emmet refers to actions rather than karma.

But: the literal definition of karma is "deed" (per Shambala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen).

[james] wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:15 pm
As for purification, that is not for any one of us to say. The harm has been done. It’s out and about and the karmic consequences are unfolding. It can’t be taken back. The best I can hope for is that, through repentance ( though I think that through mindful awareness would be more effective) I might purify my tendencies from now on. To claim purification after the fact ... well, it seems more than a bit arrogant.
Typically, "confession" in Western religious tradition is regarded as a formal admission of one's sins with repentance and desire of absolution, especially privately to a priest as a religious duty. Quite right that declaring purification would seem arrogant, imo! But: if confession does not purify, what good is it?

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lindama
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by lindama » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 am

Just reading this last post above. It's hard to separate repentance and purification. Can we ever get beyond the judeo-christian idealogy.

It seems to me that purification is nothing more than finding peace with reality.... a being that can include it all and stand tall. Nothing can be taken back. Forgiveness is an open acknowledgement of what is. The big heart can bear this.

Remembering the chant I learned:

all of the ancient twisted karma
timeless greed, hatred and ignornace
Born of my body, mouth and soul
I confess openly and let is go

and, this

SHO SAI MYO KICHIJO DHARANI
(Ancient Spell to Ward of Danger) - no translation for healing

NO MO SAM MAN DA MOTO NAN
OHA RA CHI KOTO SHA SONO NAN
TO JI TO EN GYA GYA GYA KI GYA KI UN NUN
SHIFU RA SHIFU RA HARA SHIFU RA HARA SHIFU RA
CHISHU SA CHISHU SA CHSHU RI CHISHU RI
SOHA JA SOHA JA SEN CHI GYA SHIRI EI SO MO KO

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:13 pm

lindama wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 am
Just reading this last post above. It's hard to separate repentance and purification. Can we ever get beyond the judeo-christian idealogy.
Understood. The big difference is who is doing the purifying or forgiving, and whether forgiveness or purification has to be earned through showing contrition, or whether it is just enough to declare it.

This is the part that can be problematic. The verse from DBZ may have been translated by Eido roshi, possibly with collaboration of Kaz Tanahashi or Zenrin Robert Lewis, or borrowed from Diamond Sangha? Idk. It is notable for emphasis on purification (title and ending). You can see the obvious issue here, with a serial sexual abuser reciting this, in public service, every single day.
lindama wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 am
It seems to me that purification is nothing more than finding peace with reality.... a being that can include it all and stand tall. Nothing can be taken back. Forgiveness is an open acknowledgement of what is. The big heart can bear this.
This take is well worth thinking about.

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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:14 pm

james
p.s. “since time immemorial” or even “since of old” is also hard for me to swallow. What do I know of time immemorial and why should I assume that present habits and patterns are inadequate to the needs of meaningful repentance? It sounds too much of padding and window dressing.
to me too.
4 a min, let me get back to beginningless.
the world is on fire, but one wants to purify himself. ok.
On account of my beginningless greed, hatred, and ignorance
i can not even start on this.
what has it been that made one a human, if humans are such sinners?
..hmm
would one not be happy not to have been born as a rat?
or rejoice to have even met the buddha-dharma.
there are many more q?s, but will not follow now.

i have often wondered, plz forgive me,
as to are such postulates a sign of deep pessimism,
a rejection of truths that are so obvious.

linda,
thank you.

sorry for rambling.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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[james]
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by [james] » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:43 pm

lindama wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 am
Just reading this last post above. It's hard to separate repentance and purification. Can we ever get beyond the judeo-christian ideology
The needs and longings for repentance, atonement, forgiveness and purification are inherent in human culture and have always been well beyond judeo-christian ideology, ranging from feeble group confessions and symbolic penance to varying degrees of mortifications and self abuse and on to ritual suicide and animal/human sacrifices to the gods and whatnots. It has been going on pretty much everywhere and forever. What surprises me is that, to some degree, it is a part of Buddhist culture and practice.
lindama wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 am
It seems to me that purification is nothing more than finding peace with reality.... a being that can include it all and stand tall. Nothing can be taken back. Forgiveness is an open acknowledgement of what is. The big heart can bear this.
How is forgiveness an open acknowledgement of what is?
all of the ancient twisted karma
timeless greed, hatred and ignornace
Born of my body, mouth and soul
I confess openly and let is go
“I confess openly and let it go” ... self serving mush. That people actually recite this with a straight face, feeling good about themselves (or let’s at least hope so) is disconcerting. And “twisted karma”... ???

A web search for sutta references to repentance didn’t reveal much. I’ll keep looking.

(I apologize for the harsh words. I’ll leave them as is though.)

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:20 pm

lindama wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 am
all of the ancient twisted karma
timeless greed, hatred and ignornace
Born of my body, mouth and soul
I confess openly and let is go
Regarding the last part:

"I confess and openly let it go"

I disagree with the comment that this can only be "self-serving mush". In my understanding, Buddhism has its own attachment theory, namely that attachment to having or not having (craving/aversion) leads to suffering. Therefore "letting go" is essential to ending this cycle of suffering, and concomitantly to maintaining one's mental health. One should not dwell or fixate on any deed (karma), "good" or "bad". Keep an even keel (like in my favorite sport, baseball!). As for a bad deed, it needs to be worked through (including confessed) and then let go.

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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:16 pm

all of the ancient twisted karma
timeless greed, hatred and ignorance
Born of my body, mouth and soul
I confess openly and let it go
Purification:
All the evil karma ever created by me since of old,
On account of my beginningless greed, anger and delusion,
Born of my body, mouth, and thought,
I now confess and purify them all.
confess
and purify,
and let go,
and of all your sins will be lost,
from either old or beginningless times,
lol, oxymoron,,
or from a minute ago.

"tall order, sir!"

you may be the new superhuman.
a pure one.
confessed and confirmed.
why have you waited so long,
ohh, beginningless 1?
:

"tall order, sir!"

spike, you voiced criticism.

what repentance comes to,
is accepting, changing,
and
forgiving oneself.

maybe letting go of the hurtful action,
rather than "letting go" of the results of the harmful action?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:30 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:16 pm
maybe letting go of the hurtful action,
rather than "letting go" of the results of the harmful action?
Karma is a deed. The deed has an effect (i.e., the effect of karma).

Citation:The Shambala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen. Shambala. Boston, 1991. Page 112: Karma Skt., lit. "deed". Universal law of cause and effect, which according to the Buddhist view takes effect in the following way: "The deed (karma) produces a fruit under certain circumstances; when it is ripe it then falls upon the one responsible . . . ".

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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:48 pm

im slow,
but does one know that an action
will change the history of karma,
and thus makes it a nonlinear unknown,
in the playout of "linear" karmic results.
when it is ripe it then falls upon the one responsible . . .
exmpl:
i run my car across a dog.
i am now an owner of a dog rescue pound.

is my karma good or bad?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:05 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:48 pm
i run my car across a dog.
i am now an owner of a dog rescue pound.
is my karma good or bad?
As for the event, since it seems it was an accident, and therefore not conditioned by a volitional impulse, the effect of karma starts off probably neutral?

(P.S. I am a dog owner, so please, easy with those images!).

Btw, if you put any of those healthy pound dogs to 'sleep', though, if the effect of your karma don't get you first, I will! Or fuki

:)

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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:22 pm

i start with questioning myself.
whats is my avatar?

say, how should i repent for being a dog?
confess my sins?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:01 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:22 pm
i start with questioning myself.
whats is my avatar?

say, how should i repent for being a dog?
confess my sins?
A dog automatically celebrates being a dog. Absolute best karma! Separating the dog from the deed, though: you could attend a service with your doggie sangha and repent the deed (not the dog circumstance) publicly? Really, I have the same question. Addressing the one harmed, if possible and without additional harm, maybe would be an option? Idk

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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:21 pm

i repent for
focusing on the buddha-dharma
its a beginningless sin.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Spike
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by Spike » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:29 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:21 pm
i repent for
focusing on the buddha-dharma
its a beginningless sin.
Please say more about that.

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bokki
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Re: Repentance Practices

Post by bokki » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:54 am

no way will i say more.

or, you go first.

ok? what do you say about it?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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