zen space open/receptive

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Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:02 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:58 pm
In second place for mysteries solved this week ....
Do you think modern science contributes anything to Zen practice?

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jundocohen
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am

Larry wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:02 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:58 pm
In second place for mysteries solved this week ....
Do you think modern science contributes anything to Zen practice?
Yes and no and beyond yes vs. no. (Very Zen response, no? :556: )

In some interesting cases, Zen Buddhist beliefs seem to overlap, or at least, not conflict and have some commonality, with some modern scientific views, such as a fluid sense of time, that we are functionally a "self" but also not so from other perspectives (e.g., the physicist or biologist might note that we are just conglomerations of atoms, matter-energy, aspects of wider unbroken fields or eco-systems, etc.), that our actions have effects, that there is great inter-dependency and intra-identity (e.g., that your sight consciousness is just the inverse of there being light and something to be seen), and that our sense of being a rather autonomous "self" is pretty much a mental model based on sense data constructed between the ears.

In other cases, science might point out that many traditional beliefs of Buddhism and Zen are likely wrong or very doubtful: That the earth is flat and centered on a big mountain, and many more.

In other cases, there are "truths" which science cannot touch: While a chemist or biologist might note the chemical and biological properties of a flower, and a physiologist the physical reaction in the viewer, neither can really capture the subjective feeling of a lover receiving a rose, nor of Mahākāśyapa smiling when the Buddha held up a flower.

Furthermore, there is more "in heaven and earth, Horatio, then dream't in your philosophy," and science has no more chance of understanding all aspects of this world than an ant has of understanding the chemical properties of the sugar it seeks. (That does not mean, however, that all wild claims are true just because science cannot disprove or account for something completely, by the way).

I am now submitting to my publisher at Wisdom a new manuscript, "ZEN of the FUTURE!" in which I propose that various technological advances of the near and more distant future will help us through chemistry and technology to "mess with the brain" a bit more, so as to more easily realize many insights of Zen and Buddhism such as non-self, a sense of timelessness and the like.

And finally, modern science tends to be about the interrelationships and workings of "stuff" and phenomena (dharmas) here in this universe, while our Zen Practice lets us know some wholeness which leaps through all the separate "stuff." Whether science can reach to that is an open question (perhaps very much connected to questions such as "what was before the big bang, what is before time, is there some third aspect of reality which transcends "to be or not to be") etc.

Gassho, J

Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:59 am

Thanks for a very interesting reply.
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am
I am now submitting to my publisher at Wisdom a new manuscript, "ZEN of the FUTURE!" in which I propose that various technological advances of the near and more distant future will help us through chemistry and technology to "mess with the brain" a bit more, so as to more easily realize many insights of Zen and Buddhism such as non-self, a sense of timelessness and the like.
With chemistry are you talking about advances in the use of psychedelics?

Or will I just have to buy the book :D
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am
In other cases, science might point out that many traditional beliefs of Buddhism and Zen are likely wrong or very doubtful
I promise not to mention rebirth :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:04 am

Larry wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:59 am
Thanks for a very interesting reply.
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am
I am now submitting to my publisher at Wisdom a new manuscript, "ZEN of the FUTURE!" in which I propose that various technological advances of the near and more distant future will help us through chemistry and technology to "mess with the brain" a bit more, so as to more easily realize many insights of Zen and Buddhism such as non-self, a sense of timelessness and the like.
With chemistry are you talking about advances in the use of psychedelics?

Or will I just have to buy the book :D
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am
In other cases, science might point out that many traditional beliefs of Buddhism and Zen are likely wrong or very doubtful
I promise not to mention rebirth :lol:
Buy the book. With a kid starting college ... Cha ching.

And, no, not current drugs or methods.

avisitor
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:08 am

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am
I am now submitting to my publisher at Wisdom a new manuscript, "ZEN of the FUTURE!" in which I propose that various technological advances of the near and more distant future will help us through chemistry and technology to "mess with the brain" a bit more, so as to more easily realize many insights of Zen and Buddhism such as non-self, a sense of timelessness and the like.
Sorry, I have much mistrust of authority or people who write books about Zen
It is something I am trying to deal with.

Technological advances to more easily realize??? .... stop, please stop
This Buddha-nature is not a biological or mess with the brain issue
Many people have tried drugs and other methods
They do not work for one fundamental reason

Reminds me of story of the Zen master and his disciple at the river
The river was wide and the flow was wild
The disciple asked the master how do to get to the other side
The master said you are on the other side

This Buddha-nature is inherent, natural, here ...
And no drug or technology can give one the realization or understanding of something which is not of this thinking mind
Mess with the brain as much as you like.
It must start from here,now
It must be done with effort

Well, that is my ranting.
I apologize for sidetracking

el gatito
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by el gatito » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:23 am

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:08 am
stop, please stop
You cannot stop the world from degradation. This is a part from the cycle. No worries.

p22
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by p22 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:40 am

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:08 am
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 am
I am now submitting to my publisher at Wisdom a new manuscript, "ZEN of the FUTURE!" in which I propose that various technological advances of the near and more distant future will help us through chemistry and technology to "mess with the brain" a bit more, so as to more easily realize many insights of Zen and Buddhism such as non-self, a sense of timelessness and the like.
Sorry, I have much mistrust of authority or people who write books about Zen
It is something I am trying to deal with.

Technological advances to more easily realize??? .... stop, please stop
This Buddha-nature is not a biological or mess with the brain issue
Many people have tried drugs and other methods
They do not work for one fundamental reason

Reminds me of story of the Zen master and his disciple at the river
The river was wide and the flow was wild
The disciple asked the master how do to get to the other side
The master said you are on the other side

This Buddha-nature is inherent, natural, here ...
And no drug or technology can give one the realization or understanding of something which is not of this thinking mind
Mess with the brain as much as you like.
It must start from here,now
It must be done with effort

Well, that is my ranting.
I apologize for sidetracking
:560:

I understand- I don't mistrust altogether, because some written things, like the river story for example .. were, well, written down ..
In this case, however, no need to buy the book! The side of the river you're on is fine! No pressure to spend money on something you don't like!

I agree with el g, no worries-

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jundocohen
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am

Maybe you guys should read it first before burning. Better yet, buy many copies and burn them all! I can use the money for my kid in college.

Yes, there is something beyond flesh and brain ... and yet flesh and brain is something and a facet of something. Mess with the brain, and our thoughts and experiences of the world are altered.

No, I am not so simplistic as to recommend any of the primitive drugs available today. Nor are drugs or the like alone the answer, any more than writing silly things on the internet is the answer. Practice is the way, but the practice paths of the future may be sometimes enhanced by discoveries coming down the road.

Personally. I mistrust people who mistrust all books about Zen and are convinced that Buddha nature is some holy of holies beyond all reach to realize beside the traditional ways of sitting or chanting (which are just forms of ancient technology, devises and means of realization). Do you have proof for your assertion on the nature of Buddha nature, or is it just your mystical religious belief (perhaps something you read in a book or your own personal idea) like those other folks who believe in their "holy ghost" and such?

Of course it is here now (is not the brain also here now??), but so many people in their brain do not realize and experience that it is here now, so maybe in the future then and there (which is just here and now then and there) there will be some tricks to help folks realize this here now.

Do you know that the sense of self is pretty much modeling which occurs in the frontal lobes and elsewhere based on data of the skandhas? Mess with that modeling, and folks can drop away the sense of an abiding and bounded self. It ain't rocket science.

You probably also think that the earth is flat with the big mountain at the center. Of course, you are entitled to your personal religious faith and beliefs.

Gassho, Jundo

Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:10 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
writing silly things on the internet is the answer.
Very true :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:12 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:08 am

Sorry, I have much mistrust of authority or people who write books about Zen
It is something I am trying to deal with.
Avi, whether it are books or dharma talks or whatever, for me they are helpful in relations, relating to sentient beings, from family to (dharma) friends to robots and cucumbers which is the function of Zen, there is no Zen in itself, it's just relating or responsing to causes and conditions, so whether it are books by this or that person there is always something to learn.

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:16 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:10 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
writing silly things on the internet is the answer.
Very true :lol:
Educational entertainment locally known as nonzense made possible by the unsurpassable loungeyana,
and a packet of crisps :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:22 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am

Do you know that the sense of self is pretty much modeling which occurs in the frontal lobes and elsewhere based on data of the skandhas? Mess with that modeling, and folks can drop away the sense of an abiding and bounded self. It ain't rocket science.
What do you think is the function of writing silly things on the internet, to mess with that modeling ofcourse!
At your service :lol:

But no (yes?) we are not our brains, too bad often people mistake it for an identity instead of a tool/instrument.

Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:22 pm
What do you think is the function of writing silly things on the internet, to mess with that modeling ofcourse!
At your service :lol:
:lol:

You make it sound far too sensible :lol:

I never thought Zonzense would be subject to the rigours of the scientific method :lol:

We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:
:lol:
j2.jpg
j2.jpg (9.59 KiB) Viewed 443 times

Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:48 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:
:lol:
j2.jpg
:lol:

You’ll be giving the poor man nightmares :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:53 pm

Larry wrote: You’ll be giving the poor man nightmares :lol:
"go get a cup of coffee Kirk" oh sorry that wasnt my "inner" world of thinkables but the "outer" world of hearable-perceivables :lol:

Well to quote Jundo (prior to the ducktape zenspace)
Jundo wrote:Life is mostly a dream
My cat just showed up :lol:

Yes Kirk they should....

Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:59 pm

:lol:

Beam us up to Zen Space....the final front lobe :lol:
Last edited by Larry on Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fuki
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:11 pm

Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:59 pm
:lol:

Beam us up to Zen Space....the final frontier :lol:

Or is that lobe :lol:
:lol:
The oven says it's autumn day! :lol:

p22
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by p22 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:21 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:
:lol:
j2.jpg
If you squint your eyes, he looks like Peter Coyote!

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Nothing » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:09 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:
:lol:
j2.jpg
Just a little suggestion for the title of the book. The Zen Master's Embodied Dance :D
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

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