zen space open/receptive

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jundocohen
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:14 am

Nothing wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:09 pm
fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:
:lol:
j2.jpg
Just a little suggestion for the title of the book. The Zen Master's Embodied Dance :D
What dance is not embodied? Yet again, what dance is not disembodied too?

avisitor
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:53 am

el gatito wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:23 am
avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:08 am
stop, please stop
You cannot stop the world from degradation. This is a part from the cycle. No worries.
Second law of thermodynamics
Dharma .. . Impermanence
First law of I-ching. Everything changes
Thanks for the reminder

p22 wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:40 am
:560:

I understand- I don't mistrust altogether, because some written things, like the river story for example .. were, well, written down ..
In this case, however, no need to buy the book! The side of the river you're on is fine! No pressure to spend money on something you don't like!

I agree with el g, no worries-
You are kind to agree.
Or you are kind to not agree?
I thank you for the reply.

I have a special place in my heart for those who hold onto the truths
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Maybe you guys should read it first before burning. Better yet, buy many copies and burn them all! I can use the money for my kid in college.
I did apologize for my rant.
And I am trying to deal with the mis-trust.
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Yes, there is something beyond flesh and brain ... and yet flesh and brain is something and a facet of something. Mess with the brain, and our thoughts and experiences of the world are altered.
And yet, I hear all the time that we are not our bodies.
And what is made up of aggregates is not real
Maybe I am wrong.
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
No, I am not so simplistic as to recommend any of the primitive drugs available today. Nor are drugs or the like alone the answer, any more than writing silly things on the internet is the answer. Practice is the way, but the practice paths of the future may be sometimes enhanced by discoveries coming down the road.
Possibly true?
I do not know the future
But, judging by the past, doubtful

Yes, practice is the way
Wait, what is practice the way for? What?
When one sits and there is no goal, no thing to achieve??
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Personally. I mistrust people who mistrust all books about Zen and are convinced that Buddha nature is some holy of holies beyond all reach to realize beside the traditional ways of sitting or chanting (which are just forms of ancient technology, devises and means of realization).
If that is your opinion then you should trust it
And, I did not say I mis-trust all books on Zen.
Actually have quite a few books on Zen Buddhism, Sufism, and some other mysticism
But, I like the ones with short stories in them
They teach the most interesting things
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Do you have proof for your assertion on the nature of Buddha nature, or is it just your mystical religious belief (perhaps something you read in a book or your own personal idea) like those other folks who believe in their "holy ghost" and such?
Would you like me to open my hands and show you Buddha nature??
Or to look into my eyes to see yourself??
Or are you the re-incarnation of Jesus .. to have the Holy Ghost come three days after your death to raise you??

What proof do you ask?
I have none to show you

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Of course it is here now (is not the brain also here now??), but so many people in their brain do not realize and experience that it is here now, so maybe in the future then and there (which is just here and now then and there) there will be some tricks to help folks realize this here now.

Do you know that the sense of self is pretty much modeling which occurs in the frontal lobes and elsewhere based on data of the skandhas? Mess with that modeling, and folks can drop away the sense of an abiding and bounded self. It ain't rocket science.

You probably also think that the earth is flat with the big mountain at the center. Of course, you are entitled to your personal religious faith and beliefs.
My intent was not to insult you.
Sorry if you feel it was.
I did apologize for my rant.
And, I apologize again for saying anything which might have hurt your feelings.
But, attacking me as a flat earth believer?? Of which I gave no indication of such.
And then saying I am entitled to my beliefs?
That draws more questions about where your head is at??

So I hear people say that you are a teacher,
Metta, Good will towards all people

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jundocohen
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am

Hi av,

May I offer this perhaps ...
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:53 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Yes, there is something beyond flesh and brain ... and yet flesh and brain is something and a facet of something. Mess with the brain, and our thoughts and experiences of the world are altered.
And yet, I hear all the time that we are not our bodies.
And what is made up of aggregates is not real
Maybe I am wrong.
No, you are absolutely right ... but also wrong.

There is no "self" nor eye to see a "tree," nor "tree" to be seen, and it is only our brain which creates a model of a world of trees to be seen by eyes and brains. Even the brain is empty if we think about it thinking about itself. Perhaps there are some swirling stuctures of atoms out there in certain structures and properties to emit photons to be picked up by the eyes, but the rest of the interpretive work of making a "beautiful green tree out there," assigning identity, borders, isolatable functions, perceived colors and textures, names is done between the ears.

Mess with the model between the ears, and one can deconstruct the experience of all that, creating a new grocking, piercing and dropping away, of identity, borders and separation, permanency and all the other characteristics of separate selfhood.
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:53 am
Yes, practice is the way
Wait, what is practice the way for? What?
When one sits and there is no goal, no thing to achieve??
There is no goal, nothing to achieve, nothing ever separate from what is all along. And truly realizing to the marrow the radical nature of this "no goal, nothing to get, here all along" is truly realizing something wondrous, and really getting somewhere! It is a bit like the fellow standing in Times Square, getting in a cab, looking here and there for "New York City." Really, the square, the cab, uptown and downtown, every window and door, cigarette butt and human butt is NYC, There is no place to get to find the Big Apple, and he needs to truly open his eyes to see.

Human beings run, hunger, hunt, seek, want, rate, clutch, rant all day to get to the world they want. Or, we imagine a Buddha far distant. In just sitting, we put down all the running, hungering, hunting, seeking, wanting, rating, clutching, ranting for a time and discover the wholeness and completeness of Buddha right here all along. Buddha's Timeless Square is everywhere and everyone, right where one sits! Then, getting back to our busy day of running and seeking, we realize Buddha all along ... running non running, seeking non seeking.

I think that, in the future, we will have better technological tricks (beside the traditional ways of Zazen, chanting, today's primitive drugs and such) to help running, hungering, hunting, seeking, wanting, rating, clutching, ranting people get a brief glance of not running, not hungering, not hunting, not seeking, not wanting, not rating, not clutching, not ranting ...

... as well as the ability to live a bit more running not running, hungering not hungering, hunting not hunting, seeking not seeking, wanting not wanting, rating not rating, clutching not clutching, speaking non speaking (hopefully no need to rant) ... with goalless goals and attaining non attainments ...

... because the brain creates all that selfhood of running, hungering, hunting, seeking, wanting, rating, clutching, ranting.

Like that.

Gassho, (provisionally existing) Jundo

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fuki
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:12 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am
Mess with the model between the ears, and one can deconstruct the experience of all that, creating a new grocking, piercing and dropping away, of identity, borders and separation, permanency and all the other characteristics of separate selfhood.
:105:

p22
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by p22 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:56 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:12 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am
Mess with the model between the ears, and one can deconstruct the experience of all that, creating a new grocking, piercing and dropping away, of identity, borders and separation, permanency and all the other characteristics of separate selfhood.
:105:
psychological dynamic translation in street english:

Let's see how far he can stick his head up that guys ass to get him to talk about animals on his podcast-

:109:

avisitor
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:58 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:53 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:41 am
Yes, there is something beyond flesh and brain ... and yet flesh and brain is something and a facet of something. Mess with the brain, and our thoughts and experiences of the world are altered.
And yet, I hear all the time that we are not our bodies.
And what is made up of aggregates is not real
Maybe I am wrong.
No, you are absolutely right ... but also wrong.
I know that I am not right cause I did not say those things.
So is my hearing wrong or what I am hearing ... wrong??
jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am
There is no "self" nor eye to see a "tree," nor "tree" to be seen, and it is only our brain which creates a model of a world of trees to be seen by eyes and brains.
There was a story of this senior monk at Shaolin when Bodhidharma visited.
He came up to Bodhidharma and said that there is no self nor eyes ... nor brain.
Bodhidharma made a fist and knocked him in the head
Then asked the monk if there is no self and no eyes ... no brain then where did this pain and anger come from?

So no tree? If you walk into the tree then is it the model of the tree in your mind that your body hits?
Or is it your body that hits the model of the tree in your mind?
And since it is only in your head then does it hurt?
:hatsoff:

avisitor
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:14 pm

p22 wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:56 pm
fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:12 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am
Mess with the model between the ears, and one can deconstruct the experience of all that, creating a new grocking, piercing and dropping away, of identity, borders and separation, permanency and all the other characteristics of separate selfhood.
:105:
psychological dynamic translation in street english:

Let's see how far he can stick his head up that guys ass to get him to talk about animals on his podcast-

:109:
Straight to the point. :109:

Nothing
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Nothing » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:25 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:14 am
Nothing wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:09 pm
fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:18 pm
Larry wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm
We deserve a place in Jundo’s book :lol:
:lol:
j2.jpg
Just a little suggestion for the title of the book. The Zen Master's Embodied Dance :D
What dance is not embodied? Yet again, what dance is not disembodied too?

Yes, true. It is an internal joke. Fuki will understand :)
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

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jundocohen
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:45 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:58 pm

So no tree? If you walk into the tree then is it the model of the tree in your mind that your body hits?
Or is it your body that hits the model of the tree in your mind?
And since it is only in your head then does it hurt?
:hatsoff:
Oh, some field encountered some field, and likely left one or both of the field changed by the impact.

But the "toe" which hit "tree" to describe the event is a model between the ears ... and, most certainly, the pain felt is within the brain and nervous system.
Let's see how far he can stick his head up that guys ass to get him to talk about animals on his podcast-
Likewise for "head" and "ass", two fields interacting with probably some vacuum created by the insertion.

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fuki
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:26 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:58 pm

So no tree? If you walk into the tree then is it the model of the tree in your mind that your body hits?
Or is it your body that hits the model of the tree in your mind?
And since it is only in your head then does it hurt?
:hatsoff:
Beyond the mind there is no such thing as experience. Experience is a dual state. You cannot talk of reality as an experience. Once this is understood, you will no longer look for being and becoming as separate and opposite. In reality they are one and inseparable, like roots and branches of the same tree. Both can exist only in the light of consciousness, which again, arises in the wake of the sense 'I am'. This is the primary fact. If you miss it, you miss all.
~Nisargadatta
https://books.google.nl/books?id=eXA2Cg ... ta&f=false

avisitor
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:20 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:26 pm
Beyond the mind there is no such thing as experience.
True
fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:26 pm
You cannot talk of reality as an experience.
You can talk about anything you want.
But, reality doesn't exist outside of experience
Cuz without experience the world does not exist
This is the consciousness of the universe

Remember that all is an illusion

And there it is.
My mis-trust of books written by ...
Guess I missed it.
Last edited by avisitor on Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:27 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:20 pm
Remember that all is an illusion
Yet with very real consequences
:namaste:
My mis-trust of books written by ...
It's always an interesting observation, not perse (I mean for me listening) the outer-thatness-pointing, but one's recognizing how a sense of mistrust arises/forms...I've had my "issues" with that...perhaps something to share in one of your observations?

I always neither "trust or mistrust", both are narratives based on past experiences, remember experiences are a good servant but a bad master :)

When people come up to me and say "you can trust me" or "I trust you" that itself is an "alarm bell"
What's the motivation for telling me that? :hatsoff:
"mistrust" can be healthy based on not making/repeating 'mistakes' we once made, but projecting it into the future or anticipating mistrust (based on brain-association projecting it onto people, things, images etc locking things up in a mental picture) is mostly an obstacle, since you can't "judge a book by its cover"
My world is open/free, if there's a sense of mistrust I recognize it's formation, sometimes it's skillfull, sometimes it's just some old residue. So I really have no use for the sensation/narrative of "mistrust" anymore since I stopped anticipating or looking for danger/protection, in regards to natural/biological 'protection' of this instrument, well nature takes care of that, no narrative necessary. Other then that I recognize it as the old residue, like insubstantial breezes through the sky :hatsoff:

avisitor
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:53 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:27 pm
It's always an interesting observation, not perse (I mean for me listening) the outer-thatness-pointing, but one's recognizing how a sense of mistrust arises/forms...I've had my "issues" with that...perhaps something to share in one of your observations?

I always neither "trust or mistrust", both are narratives based on past experiences, remember experiences are a good servant but a bad master :)

When people come up to me and say "you can trust me" or "I trust you" that itself is an "alarm bell"
What's the motivation for telling me that? :hatsoff:
"mistrust" can be healthy based on not making/repeating 'mistakes' we once made, but projecting it into the future or anticipating mistrust (based on brain-association projecting it onto people, things, images etc locking things up in a mental picture) is mostly an obstacle, since you can't "judge a book by its cover"
My world is open/free, if there's a sense of mistrust I recognize it's formation, sometimes it's skillfull, sometimes it's just some old residue. So I really have no use for the sensation/narrative of "mistrust" anymore since I stopped anticipating or looking for danger/protection, in regards to natural/biological 'protection' of this instrument, well nature takes care of that, no narrative necessary. Other then that I recognize it as the old residue, like insubstantial breezes through the sky :hatsoff:
That is an open and free life style.
My mis-trust comes from observations
When people quote from past Zen masters
Or use words in the form of non-zense
It reminds me of so many people, who have no real experience, speak of things and try to teach or sound wise
Personally, I am not such a good person. Rude and crude. And very opinionated.
Sometimes I find myself at the other end of the table. Arguing just to find out who knows what.
A few times on ZFI, almost got banned.

Have found a few who knows a lot of technical stuff about the Dharma, Sutras, etc
They can recite it forwards and backwards
The one person I was very impressed by was Meido

Am sorry for being rude and opinionated
Will try not posting so much and reading more.

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:04 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:53 pm

That is an open and free life style.
My mis-trust comes from observations
When people quote from past Zen masters
Or use words in the form of non-zense
It reminds me of so many people, who have no real experience, speak of things and try to teach or sound wise
Personally, I am not such a good person. Rude and crude. And very opinionated.
Sometimes I find myself at the other end of the table. Arguing just to find out who knows what.
A few times on ZFI, almost got banned.

Have found a few who knows a lot of technical stuff about the Dharma, Sutras, etc
They can recite it forwards and backwards
The one person I was very impressed by was Meido

Am sorry for being rude and opinionated
Will try not posting so much and reading more.
No it's all good Avi, I think whatever you share is potentially learnful/insightful, and you keep it civil (enough),
what you say about mistrusting people can be helpful in sharing insight regarding how things formate, for me personally determining "who's who in the world of zen" has never been interesting, but observing ppl's expressions can be.
For me no one in particular is impressive, I'd say we're all each others students and teachers, quicksilver expressions of the "One Mind" the "person" I don't even see, apart from navigational purposes ofcourse.

I hope though that this forum (or any place) can be a function for sharing, friendship, whether anyone mistrusts or not that's allright, but too many times forums like these have been too much a place about only pointing out who has "actual experience" or not, and the place becomes polarized, group-identity, camp stuff...
I don't think the buddhadharma is about that, we're in it together, no to-get-him-her, right? :D

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:17 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:45 pm
Likewise for "head" and "ass", two fields interacting with probably some vacuum created by the insertion.
:D

I am enjoying the science lessons :D
jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:55 am
No, you are absolutely right ... but also wrong.
I’m replacing my Alexa with a Jundo :D

Larry
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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by Larry » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:18 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:53 pm
Will try not posting so much and reading more.
I say post more. You always have a refreshing perspective.

I can’t stand those bastards who quote Zen Masters and write non-zense either :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:29 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:17 pm
I’m replacing my Alexa with a Jundo :D
:lol:

Good idea, the oven has been working overtime lately, it's time for some french fries tonight and dreamless sleep "free of quantum speech" If any volunteers I will forward your focal points :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:30 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:18 pm
I can’t stand those bastards who quote Zen Masters and write non-zense either :lol:
:lol:
Yes those damn method masters and (z)nonzense wannabees :lol:

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by p22 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:52 pm

Avi, moderation on ZFI very occasionally came from a place of following rules, the approach was more of a who's who to who was moderating at the time-

Remember that member that dedicated a lot of posts to Monsanto agriculture practices? They got the boot- Meantime, abusive, personal attackers were left alone to gain more and more traction, day in, day out-

And there's nothing the matter with being the person sitting at the end of the table observing, or being the last one in line and deciding not to follow the pied piper/s ..

Trust yourself -

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Re: zen space open/receptive

Post by p22 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:57 pm

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