Meditation, Zazen

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avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:04 am


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jundocohen
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:18 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:04 am
A very nice description of some kind of basic "Zazen" (quote unquote) or some kind of mindfulness meditation but, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:19 pm

Different stroke for different folks
Shikantaza may be fine for you
But, it may not be the best for every one.
Not everyone is the exact same

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:24 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:19 pm
Different stroke for different folks
Shikantaza may be fine for you
But, it may not be the best for every one.
Not everyone is the exact same
Oh, I 108% agree! I did not mean to imply otherwise. Zazen is not only of one flavor, and different ways are suited to different people. In fact, even though I am a critic of some forms of "mindfulness" meditation which have become too capitalist and consumer oriented, it may be right for some, and what they need.

I even believe that some people may do better with Pure Land, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, pure atheism or many other healthy paths without Buddhism, if this is where their Karma has brought them in this life. (However, certain unhealthy paths, such as harmful cults, extreme or hateful beliefs are not included, and are right for nobody).

What is right for me or others like me, may be totally wrong for someone else ... and so for their ways.

Gassho, J

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:46 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:24 pm
What is right for me or others like me, may be totally wrong for someone else ... and so for their ways.

Gassho, J
Thanks for understanding

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:20 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:24 pm
pure atheism
What's pure atheism?

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:25 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:20 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:24 pm
pure atheism
What's pure atheism?
I meant that one can be "just Christian" or. like many people, practice Christianity and Zen together, likewise for Judaism and Zen etc.

So "pure atheism" means someone who only has atheist beliefs, not someone who is atheist while also a Buddhist or practicing Zen.

Gassho, J

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:50 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:25 pm
I meant that one can be "just Christian" or. like many people, practice Christianity and Zen together, likewise for Judaism and Zen etc.

So "pure atheism" means someone who only has atheist beliefs, not someone who is atheist while also a Buddhist or practicing Zen.

Gassho, J
Ah thanks.
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:18 pm
A very nice description of some kind of basic "Zazen" (quote unquote) or some kind of mindfulness meditation but, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.
I've never really gotten the function of the "counting breath method", if one can't just sit without being dependent on anything then there are methods/expedients such a koan or hua'tou, might be me but I've always found it unfortunate ppl just begin practising "meditation methods" without knowing if it's actually right for them.

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:50 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:18 pm
A very nice description of some kind of basic "Zazen" (quote unquote) or some kind of mindfulness meditation but, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.
I've never really gotten the function of the "counting breath method", if one can't just sit without being dependent on anything then there are methods/expedients such a koan or hua'tou, might be me but I've always found it unfortunate ppl just begin practising "meditation methods" without knowing if it's actually right for them.
How would someone know if one method or another is right for them if they don't try those methods??
Got to begin somewhere. Might as well be here.

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:04 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 pm
How would someone know if one method or another is right for them if they don't try those methods??
That's like saying let's try a bunch of medicine to see if it matches a sickness, a sickness one might not even have!
Just sit and see if there's anything 'lacking' or in need of doing/rasping first, ppl who can't "grasp" that point then might want to consult a teacher to see what kind of "method" for "meditation" they need. My question was kind of intented for Jundo, it's interesting that ppl hear of some method and then try it out while they might be able to do without any methods, on the other hand there are people who think they can "just sit" but are fooling themselves and should actually look for a method/prerequisite, what I see sometimes is that ppl sit for years with a certain method fooling themselves it has any function. Though shikantaza is not a method I'm curious what Jundo thinks of ppl just trying out methods without proper diagnosis, or when ppl "practise" shikantaza but actually can't, and what if they are his students does he advice them.

avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:01 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:04 pm
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 pm
How would someone know if one method or another is right for them if they don't try those methods??
That's like saying let's try a bunch of medicine to see if it matches a sickness, a sickness one might not even have!
No it is not. Most medicines do have symptoms and illness for which they are suited to treat.
Meditation methods do not. There is a difference even if you refuse to see it.

fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:04 pm
Just sit and see if there's anything 'lacking' or in need of doing/rasping first, ppl who can't "grasp" that point then might want to consult a teacher to see what kind of "method" for "meditation" they need.
Just sit and see if anything is lacking??? Really??
Just say that to anyone who wants to learn how to meditate???
What??

fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:04 pm
My question was kind of intented for Jundo,
My bad. I will shut up.

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:07 pm

Avi, you cannot learn true meditation, if you can learn it or requires a method (or a "mind") its not true meditation. (which is allright but most arent honest to themselves at this point, plus there are few genuine teachers)

Remember on zfi when I replied to you "I have no mind for meditation" and you commented back "I'm very sorry to hear that!" Guess what I meant, no don't guess. ;)

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by jundocohen » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 am

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 pm

Got to begin somewhere. Might as well be here.
The problem is not that someone start off with following the breath, or even breath "counting," which are very useful for beginners who really cannot center and allow their minds to settle at all, and who cannot easily release the grip of runaway thoughts and emotions.

The problem is that so many Zen centers just leave the student there, as if that is all that Zazen is supposed to be, not much more. ("Mindfulness" meditation like that also just leaves the student sitting there, as if that is the main technique.) Of course, some Zen groups will then move the student off to Koan introspection Zazen, or perhaps to pursuing deep states of Samadhi. That is fine for such people who find their path there, I don't mean to imply otherwise.

However, for Shikantaza, none of the above is Shikantaza. Eventually (really right from the start, if you ask me), the student must be taught that the real "purpose" of sitting is to sit while dropping all "purposes" and goals besides the purpose and goal of sitting itself, with sitting naturally complete and whole just by sitting. It is the medicine for the Dukkha of human beings who always seek goals, things to run toward or away from, hungers, grasping for achievements and fleeing losses, always wanting to bend the world their way, thus instead to encounter the total satisfaction and flowing of a Buddha who has put down all grasping and goals. Yes, not becoming entangled with thoughts and emotions remains important, but the difference is that all I just wrote needs to be added to the recipe besides just following the breath. Some Zen teachers eventually get to that lesson, but I am surprised at how many don't ... maybe because their teacher just taught them breath following or the pursuit of concentrated Samadhi states, or "breath following" as merely a doorway to the main tent of Koan Introspection ... so they can only teach from what they were taught.
fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:04 pm
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 pm
How would someone know if one method or another is right for them if they don't try those methods??
.... My question was kind of intented for Jundo, ... Though shikantaza is not a method I'm curious what Jundo thinks of ppl just trying out methods without proper diagnosis, or when ppl "practise" shikantaza but actually can't, and what if they are his students does he advice them.
Finding the right practice path is something like the dating scene: One tries going out with this person or that, all to hopefully find one's "soul mate." Hit and miss (alot of misses before Mrs. ;-) ), and no better "scientific" rules to help. On the other hand, it also has aspects of being like medicine, where one is well advised to rely on a fellow who actually studied at a reputable institution and had experience in the matter (and even then, be careful: don't just rely on any guy who own a white coat and is pushing quack cures on the youtube).

Sorry, whether the "patient" finds the right doctor or "soul mate" ... and how long they should stick with a treatment or dating partner before writing it off and moving on ... has no hard and fast rules. Don't be a quitter who flits from next thing/person to next thing/person always seeking the shiny and new. On the other hand, when your heart tells you that something is not working out, your heart may be right.

Yes, I have told many people that shikantaza may not be "right for them," either for awhile or for the long term. Examples included people with certain psychological trauma or deep depression unless and until that is taken care of through mental health professional care, for the quiet sitting was triggering. A few Christian friends were just on such a very different channel of their religious seeking, thinking that meditation was a ticket to hell, that they were never going to understand Zazen.

However, the simple yet radical nature of showing human beings how to let thought go, to flow in equanimity and to put down radically all desires but to sit ... well, it is such a simple yet powerful medicine for most people in my experience once they really understand it ... and many folks (usually because they are so filled with goals, divided thinking etc.) never do get its simple message.

Gassho, J

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:23 am

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 am
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:41 pm

Got to begin somewhere. Might as well be here.
The problem is not that someone start off with following the breath, or even breath "counting," which are very useful for beginners who really cannot center and allow their minds to settle at all, and who cannot easily release the grip of runaway thoughts and emotions.

The problem is that so many Zen centers just leave the student there, as if that is all that Zazen is supposed to be, not much more. ("Mindfulness" meditation like that also just leaves the student sitting there, as if that is the main technique.) Of course, some Zen groups will then move the student off to Koan introspection Zazen, or perhaps to pursuing deep states of Samadhi. That is fine for such people who find their path there, I don't mean to imply otherwise.

However, for Shikantaza, none of the above is Shikantaza. Eventually (really right from the start, if you ask me), the student must be taught that the real "purpose" of sitting is to sit while dropping all "purposes" and goals besides the purpose and goal of sitting itself, with sitting naturally complete and whole just by sitting. It is the medicine for the Dukkha of human beings who always seek goals, things to run toward or away from, hungers, grasping for achievements and fleeing losses, always wanting to bend the world their way, thus instead to encounter the total satisfaction and flowing of a Buddha who has put down all grasping and goals. Yes, not becoming entangled with thoughts and emotions remains important, but the difference is that all I just wrote needs to be added to the recipe besides just following the breath. Some Zen teachers eventually get to that lesson, but I am surprised at how many don't ... maybe because their teacher just taught them breath following or the pursuit of concentrated Samadhi states, or "breath following" as merely a doorway to the main tent of Koan Introspection ... so they can only teach from what they were taught.
There is no Zen.
It is all Zen Buddhism. The Buddha's Dharma.
In the Pali Canon, it is said that the Buddha gave 84,000 ways to enlightenment.

What makes one method or way better than others??
And what does it mean when it is said that Bodhidharma sat in the cave near Shaolin for nine years??
What does it mean Bodhidharma came from the west??

fuki wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:07 pm
Avi, you cannot learn true meditation, if you can learn it or requires a method (or a "mind") its not true meditation. (which is allright but most arent honest to themselves at this point, plus there are few genuine teachers)

Remember on zfi when I replied to you "I have no mind for meditation" and you commented back "I'm very sorry to hear that!" Guess what I meant, no don't guess. ;)
People keep saying there is no right way or wrong way to meditate?
What is true meditation if there is no right or wrong way to meditate?

I remember you asked which mind do I mean
And I asked you how many do you have

When the senior monk at Shaolin spoke with Bodhidharma about life is an illusion and there is no mind.
Bodhidharma smacked him across the head
And asked him if life is an illusion and there is no mind then where does your pain and anger come from?
Why would it be difficult to believe that a man would cut off his arm to become a disciple??
Why would it be difficult to believe that a man sat in a cave for nine years??

Note: I am sorry for being difficult and objecting to present teachings.
I do not go easy to that dark night.

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by p22 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am

avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:23 am

What makes one method or way better than others??
You-

I've heard it said that when no (meditation) method works, don't search- Let the fire of your attention be the method and be where it benefits- It doesn't have to be seated, just be where it's needed-

In dance, it's called spotting-

Image

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:59 am

p22 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am
avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:23 am

What makes one method or way better than others??
You-

I've heard it said that when no (meditation) method works, don't search- Let the fire of your attention be the method and be where it benefits- It doesn't have to be seated, just be where it's needed-

In dance, it's called spotting-
Thank you.
It proves my point.
That no one method or way is better than another for everyone.
And there is more than just the one way (Shikantaza).
No goal, no attainment, no chasing

Still, I think it best for me to shut up.

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by p22 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:21 pm

avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:59 am

Still, I think it best for me to shut up.
Silence: Looking inward, a jewel, looking outward, bias-
Conveyance:Words from deep within or the surface of the skin-

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:49 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 am
Yes, I have told many people that shikantaza may not be "right for them," either for awhile or for the long term. Examples included people with certain psychological trauma or deep depression unless and until that is taken care of through mental health professional care, for the quiet sitting was triggering.
Interestingly enough, when I started buddhist practise in my early 20's I actually used zen to bypass such traumas or conflicts, so later I figured I did something wrong in that sense, only to find out buddhadharma is designed for that, nevertheless many of my friends suffer from a whole range of mental illnesses, though only a few find some function in buddhadharma practise, the other problem is that in mental health care its very hard to find a good one too (as in teachers) they mostly just multi-label and give them wrong medicine making problems much worse in the long run. In teachers I'm seeing a shift or adaptation that most teachers in the future would have to be both, a "therapist" and a buddhist teacher, I think without it buddhism will die even more, (not in nrs perse but in authentic service)

I don't mean that teachers need to be "therapists" in the classic sense but are skilled enough to see that some ppl will need expedient methods, specific meditation methods that deal with the "healing" part, if I look at friends from either zen or other traditions most actually use the buddhadharma as a sort of "therapy" All the while saying Buddhism is not about that lol.

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:56 pm

avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:59 am
It proves my point.
That no one method or way is better than another for everyone.
No one implied otherwise here, your point is a by-product of a discussion which was never about that. But it seems you raise that point because you think we someone saying one is better or not? If not I misread you.
Still, I think it best for me to shut up.
Shutting up is overrated :lol:
[SPOILER]
you hear that Larry? :lol:

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:21 pm

p22 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am


You-
Yes but hardly anyone gets that this "you" is not the "you" you think you are. We practise for the sake of practise, and dance for the sake of dancing, as long as theres a you dancing or not dancing, we're merely having some notion of I am dancing here and you are dancing there, which is the fundamental delusion.
In dance, it's called spotting-
“Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the Gods made for fun.”
~Alan watts
[SPOILER]
wow that was the first time ever I quoted Watts, hope the gods are pleased with that :lol:

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