A very nice description of some kind of basic "Zazen" (quote unquote) or some kind of mindfulness meditation but, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.
Oh, I 108% agree! I did not mean to imply otherwise. Zazen is not only of one flavor, and different ways are suited to different people. In fact, even though I am a critic of some forms of "mindfulness" meditation which have become too capitalist and consumer oriented, it may be right for some, and what they need.
I meant that one can be "just Christian" or. like many people, practice Christianity and Zen together, likewise for Judaism and Zen etc.
Ah thanks.jundocohen wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:25 pmI meant that one can be "just Christian" or. like many people, practice Christianity and Zen together, likewise for Judaism and Zen etc.
So "pure atheism" means someone who only has atheist beliefs, not someone who is atheist while also a Buddhist or practicing Zen.
I've never really gotten the function of the "counting breath method", if one can't just sit without being dependent on anything then there are methods/expedients such a koan or hua'tou, might be me but I've always found it unfortunate ppl just begin practising "meditation methods" without knowing if it's actually right for them.
How would someone know if one method or another is right for them if they don't try those methods??fuki wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:50 pmI've never really gotten the function of the "counting breath method", if one can't just sit without being dependent on anything then there are methods/expedients such a koan or hua'tou, might be me but I've always found it unfortunate ppl just begin practising "meditation methods" without knowing if it's actually right for them.
That's like saying let's try a bunch of medicine to see if it matches a sickness, a sickness one might not even have!
No it is not. Most medicines do have symptoms and illness for which they are suited to treat.
Just sit and see if anything is lacking??? Really??
My bad. I will shut up.
The problem is not that someone start off with following the breath, or even breath "counting," which are very useful for beginners who really cannot center and allow their minds to settle at all, and who cannot easily release the grip of runaway thoughts and emotions.
Finding the right practice path is something like the dating scene: One tries going out with this person or that, all to hopefully find one's "soul mate." Hit and miss (alot of misses before Mrs. ), and no better "scientific" rules to help. On the other hand, it also has aspects of being like medicine, where one is well advised to rely on a fellow who actually studied at a reputable institution and had experience in the matter (and even then, be careful: don't just rely on any guy who own a white coat and is pushing quack cures on the youtube).fuki wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:04 pm.... My question was kind of intented for Jundo, ... Though shikantaza is not a method I'm curious what Jundo thinks of ppl just trying out methods without proper diagnosis, or when ppl "practise" shikantaza but actually can't, and what if they are his students does he advice them.
There is no Zen.jundocohen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 amThe problem is not that someone start off with following the breath, or even breath "counting," which are very useful for beginners who really cannot center and allow their minds to settle at all, and who cannot easily release the grip of runaway thoughts and emotions.
The problem is that so many Zen centers just leave the student there, as if that is all that Zazen is supposed to be, not much more. ("Mindfulness" meditation like that also just leaves the student sitting there, as if that is the main technique.) Of course, some Zen groups will then move the student off to Koan introspection Zazen, or perhaps to pursuing deep states of Samadhi. That is fine for such people who find their path there, I don't mean to imply otherwise.
However, for Shikantaza, none of the above is Shikantaza. Eventually (really right from the start, if you ask me), the student must be taught that the real "purpose" of sitting is to sit while dropping all "purposes" and goals besides the purpose and goal of sitting itself, with sitting naturally complete and whole just by sitting. It is the medicine for the Dukkha of human beings who always seek goals, things to run toward or away from, hungers, grasping for achievements and fleeing losses, always wanting to bend the world their way, thus instead to encounter the total satisfaction and flowing of a Buddha who has put down all grasping and goals. Yes, not becoming entangled with thoughts and emotions remains important, but the difference is that all I just wrote needs to be added to the recipe besides just following the breath. Some Zen teachers eventually get to that lesson, but I am surprised at how many don't ... maybe because their teacher just taught them breath following or the pursuit of concentrated Samadhi states, or "breath following" as merely a doorway to the main tent of Koan Introspection ... so they can only teach from what they were taught.
People keep saying there is no right way or wrong way to meditate?fuki wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:07 pmAvi, you cannot learn true meditation, if you can learn it or requires a method (or a "mind") its not true meditation. (which is allright but most arent honest to themselves at this point, plus there are few genuine teachers)
Remember on zfi when I replied to you "I have no mind for meditation" and you commented back "I'm very sorry to hear that!" Guess what I meant, no don't guess.
Thank you.p22 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 amYou-
I've heard it said that when no (meditation) method works, don't search- Let the fire of your attention be the method and be where it benefits- It doesn't have to be seated, just be where it's needed-
In dance, it's called spotting-
Interestingly enough, when I started buddhist practise in my early 20's I actually used zen to bypass such traumas or conflicts, so later I figured I did something wrong in that sense, only to find out buddhadharma is designed for that, nevertheless many of my friends suffer from a whole range of mental illnesses, though only a few find some function in buddhadharma practise, the other problem is that in mental health care its very hard to find a good one too (as in teachers) they mostly just multi-label and give them wrong medicine making problems much worse in the long run. In teachers I'm seeing a shift or adaptation that most teachers in the future would have to be both, a "therapist" and a buddhist teacher, I think without it buddhism will die even more, (not in nrs perse but in authentic service)jundocohen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 amYes, I have told many people that shikantaza may not be "right for them," either for awhile or for the long term. Examples included people with certain psychological trauma or deep depression unless and until that is taken care of through mental health professional care, for the quiet sitting was triggering.
No one implied otherwise here, your point is a by-product of a discussion which was never about that. But it seems you raise that point because you think we someone saying one is better or not? If not I misread you.
Shutting up is overratedStill, I think it best for me to shut up.
Yes but hardly anyone gets that this "you" is not the "you" you think you are. We practise for the sake of practise, and dance for the sake of dancing, as long as theres a you dancing or not dancing, we're merely having some notion of I am dancing here and you are dancing there, which is the fundamental delusion.
“Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the Gods made for fun.”In dance, it's called spotting-