Meditation, Zazen

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avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:41 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:18 pm
A very nice description of some kind of basic "Zazen" (quote unquote) or some kind of mindfulness meditation but, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.

Gassho, J
fuki wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:56 pm
avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:59 am
It proves my point.
That no one method or way is better than another for everyone.
No one implied otherwise here, your point is a by-product of a discussion which was never about that. But it seems you raise that point because you think we someone saying one is better or not? If not I misread you.
But, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.
No one said it was. So why bring it up??

p22
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by p22 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:56 pm

fuki wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:21 pm
p22 wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:19 am


You-
Yes but hardly anyone gets that this "you" is not the "you" you think you are. We practise for the sake of practise, and dance for the sake of dancing, as long as theres a you dancing or not dancing, we're merely having some notion of I am dancing here and you are dancing there, which is the fundamental delusion.
In dance, it's called spotting-
“Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the Gods made for fun.”
~Alan watts
[SPOILER]
wow that was the first time ever I quoted Watts, hope the gods are pleased with that :lol:
Oscillating between the you thing and seeing/focus/spotting/attention is possible-
Especially during difficult times-

Seeing that matters- Meeting people where they are at: The you thing waving its flag while seated but is gone once back up on the feet, be it to dance, hold a hand, listen- Attend to responsibilities, fully-

I was laying on the kitchen floor in pain years ago- One of my children woke, stepped over me, prepared the coffee maker, set it to brew, then said, "You, ok?", while staring out the window- We both busted into laughter, laughing until we cried, until we could barely breathe-

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desertwoodworker
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by desertwoodworker » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:44 pm

It's a good practice.
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:22 pm
Stillness, just sitting, watching breath in and out.

Comments, explanations, thoughts???
Go on some retreats and get heavy-duty with it, to "learn" more. Maybe you've been fortunate to have the chance to do so already, family notwithstanding (bring them along on 7-day sesshin?). ;-)

When there, with great practice and great luck, Sangha may become just one Being, if that many. We're definitely "not two", and it's reasonable to realize doubt even about the presumed or supposed "One".

Our teacher Sheng Yen kept us pressing on from "Scattered Mind", beyond "Unified Mind", to ...No-Mind. Many or most practitioners seem not to go beyond Unified ("One") Mind, if they reach that, but to stay there is an attachment, and not good enough for a Ch'an practitioner. None of it is easy, and there are no criticisms, only encouragements. :namaste:

Best,

--Joe
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:22 pm
Stillness, just sitting, watching breath in and out.

Comments, explanations, thoughts???
Last edited by desertwoodworker on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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fuki
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 am

avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:41 pm

But, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.
No one said it was. So why bring it up??
Ask Jundo, but it's a "habit" of teachers to do so, just like it's my "habit" to point out how ppl know so little (or too much) or mistake one thing for the other about my "fields of study" It's important to clearly discriminate between things.

Why I brought up the no-method thingy, is to relate to people, the practise, which is a life long commitment, in a sense talking with Jundo and others helps relating and discriminating more functionally in daily life. Also buddhism is mostly a mess here, tainted, corrupted, so it's learnful to get the views of others. It's never about favouring, just learning. This is a wordy forum but its useful mostly in a daily life setting away from the keyboard, so I can use Jundo's and others views as such.

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jundocohen
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by jundocohen » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:27 am

avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:23 am

There is no Zen.
It is all Zen Buddhism. The Buddha's Dharma.
In the Pali Canon, it is said that the Buddha gave 84,000 ways to enlightenment.

What makes one method or way better than others??
And what does it mean when it is said that Bodhidharma sat in the cave near Shaolin for nine years??
What does it mean Bodhidharma came from the west??
Yes yes yes, what you say is all true.

And yet, taking heroin, belonging to a violent cult, jumping off a cliff to one's death or sitting in the Lotus Posture while thinking of how to cheat one's neighbor is not a better way although one way. I mean, yes, all is Buddha, but not all is Buddha.

Even among various ways to practice or sit, I do not consider that certain forms of "mindfulness" meditation meant to make one a better killer warrior or killer capitalist are "better" meditation, or just "different strokes for different folks."

On the other hand, there are many good ways, suited to different people like many good medicines (although each can be poison for somebody else perhaps). Koan Introspection, chanting to Amida, praying to Jesus, following the breath, sitting Shikantaza ... all good medicines for those who benefit from their administration.

Bodhidharma sat in his cave, he did not jump off the ledge or plot deadly Kung-fu moves.

(Here's a Koan: Bodhidharma did not sit with with Zhaozhou's "Does a dog have Buddha-nature" ... because Zhaozhou would not be born for another 300 years! :geek: Yet, Zhaozhou sat in that cave long before Bodhidharma! :) )

avi wrote: Why would it be difficult to believe that a man would cut off his arm to become a disciple??
Probably because he would have bled to death, ambulance service being what it was back then, or been a delusional mental case to do so! :jaw:

The best historical evidence at this point is that the story was transposed first as a "cut and paste" from that of another famous monk of the time just as a myth to show Huike's determination, with the latter monk having actually lost an arm to bandits.

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=x2Z ... it&f=false

Gassho, J

(mod:edited to attribute the last quote to the 'right' person)

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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:39 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:44 pm
Our teacher Sheng Yen kept us pressing on from "Scattered Mind", beyond "Unified Mind", to ...No-Mind. Many or most practitioners seem not to go beyond Unified ("One") Mind, if they reach that, but to stay there is an attachment, and not good enough for a Ch'an practitioner. None of it is easy, and there are no criticisms, only encouragements. :namaste:

Best,

--Joe
Guo Gu no longer teaches in stages but here's an article he wrote in the winter of 2012 regarding that, also mentioned in his latest dharma talk (silent illumination) which I was live for including the meditation before the talk. This "zoom" thing is neat, never could expect the same permeating energy as in a offline sangha.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lionsr ... tened/amp/

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fuki
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:44 am

A video from Jeff Shore (Viktor's teacher) regarding "basic zazen" I like this because it leaves no room for "error" as I see so many people "following" the breath as some kind of notion.
https://vimeo.com/120545795
[SPOILER]
dharmadrum2015b.jpg
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desertwoodworker
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:48 am

Yes, Fuki, it was not so much "teaching in stages", as, instead, when he had us there on retreat, he would not let us languish and waste time and life at One Mind, but he encouraged us to keep going.

As any good Ch'an and Zen master can do, too, on 7-day retreat he used what he could do to the maximum to help us break free of the attachment to One Mind, including his use of "pecking". See Meido Roshi's book for some brief introduction to that miraculous intervention.

:namaste:

--Joe

tails_2.jpg
One mind? No mind?
---
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fuki wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:39 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:44 pm
Our teacher Sheng Yen kept us pressing on from "Scattered Mind", beyond "Unified Mind", to ...No-Mind. Many or most practitioners seem not to go beyond Unified ("One") Mind, if they reach that, but to stay there is an attachment, and not good enough for a Ch'an practitioner. None of it is easy, and there are no criticisms, only encouragements. :namaste:

Best,

--Joe
Guo Gu no longer teaches in stages but here's an article he wrote in the winter of 2012 regarding that, also mentioned in his latest dharma talk (silent illumination) which I was live for including the meditation before the talk. This "zoom" thing is neat, never could expect the same permeating energy as in a offline sangha.

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fuki
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:05 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:48 am
Yes, Fuki, it was not so much "teaching in stages", as, instead, when he had us there on retreat, he would not let us languish and waste time and life at One Mind, but he encouraged us to keep going.

As any good Ch'an and Zen master can do, too, on 7-day retreat he used what he could do to the maximum to help us break free of the attachment to One Mind, including his use of "pecking". See Meido Roshi's book for some brief introduction to that miraculous intervention.

:namaste:

--Joe


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Thanks Joe.
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desertwoodworker
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:18 am

Yes sirree, Bob. I mean Fuki! :)

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At Ch'an Center in New York
---
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avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:09 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 am
avisitor wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:41 pm

But, of course, this is --not-- Shikantaza.
No one said it was. So why bring it up??
Ask Jundo, but it's a "habit" of teachers to do so, just like it's my "habit" to point out how ppl know so little (or too much) or mistake one thing for the other about my "fields of study" It's important to clearly discriminate between things.
Yes, learn other's views. Got it.
Habit is a force upon itself
Sometimes useful like putting one's keys on the same hook everyday
This would help one know where the keys are.
And then there is the habit of saying, "That is good but it is not the way I would do it."
Yes, I am not the teacher. Nor am I the disciple. Just another view.
With effort and strong faith, one can break habits even addiction to Heroin.

I apologize to Jundo for my posts. My attitude is not one of acceptance.
And, I do not take criticism well. Again sorry.
I know you are doing what it is you do to teach others the way.
I will shut up.
Last edited by avisitor on Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:11 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:44 pm
It's a good practice.
avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:22 pm
Stillness, just sitting, watching breath in and out.

Comments, explanations, thoughts???
Go on some retreats and get heavy-duty with it, to "learn" more. Maybe you've been fortunate to have the chance to do so already, family notwithstanding (bring them along on 7-day sesshin?). ;-)

When there, with great practice and great luck, Sangha may become just one Being, if that many. We're definitely "not two", and it's reasonable to realize doubt even about the presumed or supposed "One".

Our teacher Sheng Yen kept us pressing on from "Scattered Mind", beyond "Unified Mind", to ...No-Mind. Many or most practitioners seem not to go beyond Unified ("One") Mind, if they reach that, but to stay there is an attachment, and not good enough for a Ch'an practitioner. None of it is easy, and there are no criticisms, only encouragements. :namaste:

Best,

--Joe
Thank you Joe.
I can see your response is always coming from a place of great compassion and understanding.

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desertwoodworker
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:21 am

Thanks, Av. It's my teacher talking, really. I've been a sponge, and then our minds -- no mind -- were one, and then none. This is a transformation and transportation that leaves nothing as it was. Except, our original nature has been there from the start!

Stay safe, take chances,

--Joe

Turtle Clan
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by Turtle Clan » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:47 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:21 am
Stay safe, take chances
Good advice!

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fuki
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:53 am

avisitor wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:09 am
My attitude is not one of acceptance.
And, I do not take criticism well. Again sorry.
I will shut up.
Anything else? Short attention span maybe to add to the bundle of self(criticism)? ;)

p22
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by p22 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:22 am

avisitor wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:11 am

Thank you Joe.
I can see your response is always coming from a place of great compassion and understanding.
That's a little too chancy - :lol:

avisitor
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by avisitor » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:26 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:53 am
avisitor wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:09 am
My attitude is not one of acceptance.
And, I do not take criticism well. Again sorry.
I will shut up.
Anything else? Short attention span maybe to add to the bundle of self(criticism)? ;)
I know my faults as others point it out some times.
Now, I must add self criticism to the list. :106:

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:02 am
I cannot stomach being told what the masters are meaning in their writing
Is it a case of self-perceived intellectual or spiritual superiority?
Probably both
Cheers
M
That is another thing i have to put on my list

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fuki
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:48 am

:lol:

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desertwoodworker
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:17 pm

Bull.
p22 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:22 am
avisitor wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:11 am

Thank you Joe.
I can see your response is always coming from a place of great compassion and understanding.
That's a little too chancy - :lol:

p22
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Re: Meditation, Zazen

Post by p22 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:29 pm

desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:17 pm

Bull.
Baloney- Hogwash- Poppycock!

Your turn- :lol:

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