What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

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p22
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:51 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:35 am
No I got it, was just being funny, but sometimes I'm the only one laughing.
:115:
You mean flat?

:106:

michaeljc
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:06 am

I'm thinking that I am far too serious to be in this place

Can seriousness be moderated or half tolerated?

:113:

p22
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:50 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:06 am
I'm thinking that I am far too serious to be in this place

Can seriousness be moderated or half tolerated?

:113:
I recall seeing your playful side on ZFI- One of my favorites was you agonizing over recording accurate temperature! I think it was Joe that you were bantering back and forth with? It was fun! As I remember it at the moment- 😊

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:09 pm

Fuki -

Here is the text of a post I have just made with my local history FB page. I won't load the photo as it is too tedious. It may give some perspective on why there is a back-lash against the vegan sermons. These people are my cousins and this is my culture. We breed animals, we kill animals and we eat animals. All sorts of cultures are avidly protected and admired around the world, but apparently not ours (by some). In truth we don't care.

In my opinion there is no cruelty associated with abattoirs in my country. All farm animals are herded and pushed around and restricted in tight mobs over and again on the farms throughout the year. They go on a truck - just like in a yard in a yard on the farm- come off the truck, into a race. then bang! one very powerful electric shock that kills instantly. There is no extraordinary stress or pain. We have some of the best veterinary professionals in the world overseeing this. So has Europe and the US. If you want to witness animal cruelty visit Africa where the recommended "Organic Farming Systems" exist.

Olive and Jill Goulter- Ward with their Dad, Gerald, around 1970. On the right an earlier photo with their mother Ada (nee Ward – no relation of the Goulter-Wards)
Note the bare feet. Olive and Jill devoted their lives to sheep on their ~ 500 acre Kawanui property. It is essentially one hill running right down to the surf at Ruapuke. The only time they wore boots was in the yards drenching or penning up. Next door, their cousins Dawn and Nancy Ward were also spinster-sisters who farmed al their lives.
At one time Olive and Jill had the highest lambing percentages in the district. It was said that when they came across a lost lamb they could go straight to the mother by the look of the face. This, out of a flock of ~ 800.
No animal was left to die. Having 40 – 50 lambs on the bottle was normal during lambing. These were all recorded and troublesome sheep culled. All bearing ewes were treated and saved at the time that most of us had moved into “easy-care” - great idea until one struck a safety pin while shearing. Sand was another problem in that shed – changing a cutter every 5 minutes and a comb on the hour.
They never had decent dogs, so how they did all this I have no idea. They specialised in Romney and were selling rams around the district. Later they moved into some meat-breed crosses (Border Lester x Polled Dorset?) These rams did not sell so well. They were before their time but are exactly what we need now, what with the wool price being so diabolical.
I can never recall seeing any of these 4 ladies at a sale to see their sheep sold. They were too shy to mix in the male company. To me this was a tragedy.
Dawn and Nancy were devoted dog trialists. They would stay through the entire 3 days at the Kauroa trials sitting in the Land Rover, isolated under a tree, watching every run.
There was food and spectators a hundred metres away but they never ventured there. Those of us that knew them would drop by from time-to-time.
Both farms were entirely dependent on agents for their marketing. The first was Jeff Andrews who advised on all sorts of things including fertilizer. Then came Chris Leuthart, in around 1971 - as I recall. He was particularly kind and helpful. Who else could address spinsters as “Dear”.

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fuki
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:52 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:09 pm
Fuki -

Here is the text of a post I have just made with my local history FB page. I won't load the photo as it is too tedious. It may give some perspective on why there is a back-lash against the vegan sermons. These people are my cousins and this is my culture. We breed animals, we kill animals and we eat animals. All sorts of cultures are avidly protected and admired around the world, but apparently not ours (by some). In truth we don't care.
Michael, I've seen videos (tons of them) including in your country of animal abuse/torture both on farms and abbatoirs, here's just one example of a NZ dairy farm.
https://vimeo.com/146749967
I've also (undercover) visited farms and abbatoirs myself over the years for various animal rights groups, just to get footage to provide for governments/lawsuits. Yes culture, in the Netherlands we had cultures, slavery, (and we celebrate "black pete! as a "culture"") woman only good for the kitchen and the bedroom and not allowed to vote was one day a culture, though ofcourse no longer socially accepted, it still happens and the karmic seeds are also still present in the minds of many. You know any new Hitler might show up and your loving neighbours are capable of acts you would thought unimaginable of them (just check the final solution in eastern europe and how happy citizens were to voluntarily start killing jews, boiling them alive like what happens to animals in slaughterhouses) You might not care, that's fine, I'm in it for all beings, you too. And this is just about the cruelty part, not even touching up the discussion that humans are primitive dominant species eventually fucking it up for the totality of manifested existence, including what is locally known as "humans"
I'm not attacking anyone for their culture, but cultures change, as everything does, resisting change is unnatural.
I've seen the cruelty in Africa, actually a close friend of mine is training locals in slaughterhouses there to make it a bit "better" for the animals, something I couldn't, bless him!
All farm animals are herded and pushed around and restricted in tight mobs over and again on the farms throughout the year. They go on a truck - just like in a yard in a yard on the farm- come off the truck, into a race. then bang! one very powerful electric shock that kills instantly.
I certainly hope most farmers/abbatoir do it like this, however my 'position' still stands that even treating animals "rightly" that is by human law, in the end no sentient beings should be inseminated (raped) and kept for profit like they were products instead of sentient beings with the same emotions and feelings as humans have, eventhough humans might perceive it otherwise.

This is for me not about your view against my view, and I realize it won't change or go away (factory farming) overnight, but one day it will, and we will look back at it in shame, just like we do now in respect to slavery or the holocaust, and in school books it will be taught about how there once was such a thing as speciesism.

My point mainly is about Buddhism and that in my view they should be more engaged with sentient beings suffering, not as a judgment to farmers, but hopefully they'd find it in their heart to be part of the change, whether it's for climate change, the sake of humanity, or for all beings.
I know you have no cruel intentions and please understand this is not a personal attack, nor to anyone.
:namaste:

So Friend, you can attack or critisice "my" culture as much as you like, since because mom/dad had some fun and ppl think I'm sperm-consciousness since most ppl refer to "me" as some appearance locally known as a "human" or a "dutchy" I also realize that you are born in a different country and due to causes and conditions farming is just part of it, so if I were you (or if I would have been 'born' in the farmer area of this country) I would have probably did the same as you, and there's my point, there's no such thing as "my culture" For every animal brought to slaughter, every lab rat experimented on, every body/instrument of the "One Mind" or function in Consciousness, even though I'm not that, as long as mom's and dads have fun, whatever through egg/womb/moisture or transformation seemingly appears or takes "birth" I am that too, originally "beyond" but never seperate (even) in manifestation, and focal points known as "humans" don't need animal products to survive, at least not anymore due to causes and conditions, aka change aka "evolution" :D

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:28 pm

Fuki - thanks for the response. You wanted a debate, now you have got one. :)

I have read every word of your response and watched the video in full. I am not here to try to change your views which are obviously well entrenched. I am simply here to tell the other side of the story so that others may make their own free decisions.

Re the video:
What you don't know or mention is the thousands of hours of coverage taken by hidden cameras installed by animal rights activists that show no abuse. There ARE long-established animal rights laws within countries like NZ that were in place long long before animal activism came in to play:

After New Zealand became a colony in 1840, English laws applied. Nelson and Otago provinces also passed ordinances protecting animals, but the first national law was the Cruelty to Animals Act 1878. It outlawed cruel treatment of any species, domestic or wild, imported or indigenous.

Anyone with any nous can see that the man abusing calves in the later part of the video has a major psychiatric problem. He was prosecuted very severely under the law. Now you appear to tar the whole industry with the same brush. Your lobby uses this extreme situation to imply the consumption of dairy products is immoral.

What If I could post a video of a parent physically abusing or even killing their own child - which you know is going on right now in any city? What of abuse of patients in hospitals by some psychopath nurse? You want to prohibit families and hospitals? THERE IS A BAD APPLE IN EVERY BARREL.

Re: consumption of dairy products
I was told recently by someone who should know that rearing a child on a purely vegan diet has been deemed illegal by a judge in NZ because it constitutes a severe risk of malnutrition. . I would need to substantiate this further.

But, what with rearing 2 young children right now I regard dairy products and dairy based child formulas a gift from the gods. Our eldest child at one stage began to lose weight rapidly during breast feeding. We substituted with formula and she has not looked back. Even now at age 3 she only nibbles solids. She has essentially been reared on milk. She is in the top 10% of NZ children in height and weight, strong and fit. Try doing that on soy imitation - milk. We tried it once and she refused to drink it.

Recently an environmentalist in NZ advocated that mothers should not feed there babies formula. This was published in MSM. Health authorities and a highly respected baby health monitoring body called Plunket (I was taken to Plunket when I was a baby) came down hard, publicly apposing this view. It is ill-informed and dangerous.

Re demand for meat and dairy products:

NZ exports during the lockdown barely fluttered. China, in particular found ways to import our meat and dairy products. Baby formula is in particular demand. A Chinese national, just yesterday, got busted in Australia for running a formula shoplifting ring, resulting in tons been exported to China for a black market. Note the different body size generation-by-generation in China, Japan and Korea. This is all about protein intake in the form of dairy products, fish and meat.

Finally, don’t think that a global switch to vegan products will save animals. It won’t. Do the calcs. Work out how much more agricultural land is required to substitute the "horror-products". Much of the land used to rear animals is not suitable for crops – including almost all the millions of hectares in NZ devoted to sheep.

Finally - if your ancestors had not eaten meat you would not be here.

Finally, finally, - please cc your letters to the Dalia Lama. He eats meat.

Sorry to rattle your cage

:namaste:

M

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:57 pm

Michael thanks for your reply, but I've had too many discussions already like "this".

For what it's worth understand I have no enemies or friends in this matter, (though in ppl's perception I have friends on "both sides" farmers included) nor do I care for discussions or debates like this.

I will always advocate/promote for the end of using sentient beings for a profit, economically or emotionally, including in human relationships. Yes you and I won't last to see that day, yet we will, without the personal memory ofcourse, albeit the history lesson "then"

The topic to me was mostly about the Buddhist community, i.e. why sanghas/teachers do not promote "veganism" more, not to discredit farmers (the animal farmers) ofcourse, either financially or otherwise, but for the sake of all beings wher/whenever possible in current causes and conditions. I believe it's a mistake for teachers to not promote this eventhough they have friends/students "tied" financially to the industry.

I know farmers locally who have switched from animal farming to "green farming" and also know a farmer locally despite that I dont approve of his dairy business who has acknowledged the psychological suffering of mother and calf when they're seperated, so now (since a few years) allows the calfs and mothers to grow up together. I'm no one's enemy.
:115:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:26 pm

But Fuki -

You have had too many discussions like this yet post an extremist video with no attempt to quantify it in relation to the reality.

You also make reference to Hitler and the holocaust in the same article. Is this the middle way?

I was very hesitant to contribute to this topic but will not stand back and just allow such a take be published in the public arena without a response. There are very impressionable people out there. They are entitled to a balanced view.

Very recently a NZ judge adjudged that veganism qualifies as a religion and is entitled to all the protection of a religion. I too see it as such.

Just my way of seeing it in this moment of time. :)

Cheers

M

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 pm

Mike, what I meant with that is this "debate" seems to be about you sharing your experiences and proofs, and me sharing mine. Done that too many times in the sense I don't find that productive, nor do I care about convincing ppl or manipulating ppl to make a choice, I speak from the heart, the example of the video is indeed as undercover what I found to be true in 80-90% of all farms/abbatoirs, ofcourse when a camera is present or whoever shows up on appointment, either locals/media or colleques then farmers/slaughterhouses do not display their regular conduct/work. So in that sense you should be "happy" me not wanting to continue that (polarizing) debate ;)

But that's what I meant, I know you don't intent cruelty to animals and not refering to you here let that be clear! Many ppl say "I'm not a racist" but they don't get that that is just a self-referential thought, despite thinking that one still manifests racial tendencies or bias because it's a collective or cultural conditining.

I know many ppl who say "I'm kind to woman, they're my equal blabla" while when I visit those friends display the contrary, including ppl (vegans also sometimes) who say they love their pets and show what has nothing to do with love, in the same way most farmers think they're kind or love their animals despite manifesting something else, but that's because ppl have different angle of visions, though mine are not distorted by thinking or a personal preference...well not on these matters, I have my own blindspots :P

See "animals" "humans" etc to me are just labels, I could ask you what if those animals were your human children, but then you'd "counter" with something as the dalai lama eats meat or whatever, see? I've heared those things to often and it's just deflection to the real matter. I speak about this cause it matters to me, without lobby or call it sentience lobby/agenda or whatever, all words fail anyway. I just happen to be as a young boy been touched to speak for what is locally known as "animals" But pro animal never means anti "human" or whatever.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:04 pm

Once again, the destruction that nutrient pollution causes the environment was absent-mindedly, on purpose, omitted from the discussion .. which speaks volumes-

Oh, well .. So much for planetary protection-

I guess men will always be men and sheep nervous-

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:14 pm

There's so much more Teresa, including that children die of starvation because "us" westerners need to feed our cattle, I focus mainly on the fact there is no such thing as animal or human consciousness, despite local appearant differences due to falsly identifying to vehicles. Climate change I also don't talk about often because though helpful it sort of manipulates because humans fear their own existence, so it distracts from the main point, that there's no such thing as your and my mind. For me ever since a young boy the focus is on factory farming, even if it were good for the climate I'd still be against it. So I leave the discussion concerning climate and pollution and all the science I'm not aware of to the "young guns" (not refering to age)

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:16 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:04 pm
I guess men will always be men and sheep nervous-
:mrgreen:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:20 pm

I vote to change the topic of this ponzi thread to Bernievegan Madoffdharma ..

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:28 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:20 pm
I vote to change the topic of this ponzi thread to Bernievegan Madoffdharma ..
:lol:
Bernie or the Dalai Lama hmm... easy choise,
I vote ME, and not running, cause I've seen how that movie ends, "plus"....
politics-government-lobby-lobbyist-lobbying-politician-wmi100902_low.jpg
politics-government-lobby-lobbyist-lobbying-politician-wmi100902_low.jpg (109.44 KiB) Viewed 218 times

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:32 pm

0409zyglis-1.jpg
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:42 pm

Yeah, I spent my check on meat .. llama hind quarters- And various alpaca parts- Their leg bones make good broth ..

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:43 am

Why is the subject so difficult? In my view because it represents a real life koan (or many).

Koan 1: The starving cat.

While working in a Pakistan city called Peshawar a starving cat came to the door. This cat was young and in very poor condition. In my culture one is obliged to feed the cat or kill it. We don’t prolong it’s suffering. One comes across many such cats around town scrounging through the sparse garbage and other examples of suffering through neglect. One sees much worse in Africa.

Now – all things considered I would have killed it as I knew that I was only to be there for a couple of months. We consider humane killing to be a merciful act when justified.

But, any witness of such an act would have meant big trouble. Most people would not understand my rationale. I decided to feed it. When it came back for more, one of the expats staying in the same building abused me saying that I was passing an obligation onto my replacement. She was right. But was I wrong?

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 am

As people love themselves more, others suffer less-

The abuse was dependent upon what could happen to the replacement, not what had- You responded to what was happening at the moment-

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:09 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:43 am
Why is the subject so difficult?
No difficulty, Factory farming is a hell and the worst crime in history. That being said some ppl are born in cultures or situations where this is the norm, however this is Buddhist forum and keeping the precept of no killing in mind this topic can never be about justifying or somehow pretending killing is just normal, despite personal situations we might encounter like a cat in Africa or whatever.

Would you just for the sake of your culture resist a global change in humans where we no longer kill and exploit animals? Justifying eating meat is one thing but if the day comes when the majority of ppl want this change would you resist and keep killing animals eventhough you could switch to "green farming" with the help of your government or would you defend a culture of killing?

The cat example has nothing to do with the subject of factory farming, we had similair discussions before like when you or I would come across a dying animal in pain on the road, what we would do. But thats not the topic or nor would such an act of putting a being out of its misery (humans included) relates to killing for food, nor does one act justify another act, there's a danger in such a narrative to somehow normalize or justify human activity of breeding and killing.

Humans if honestly looking in the mirror can acknowledge we behave like a plague spreading on this planet, but even now most of us rather justify our actions and narrative instead of acknowledging we fucked up and can and should do much better, but the usual narrative is to justify our own actions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... l-question

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Crystal » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:28 pm

michaeljc wrote: Finally, finally, - please cc your letters to the Dalia Lama. He eats meat.
How is that even relevant ?.....the Dalai lama isn't the head of Buddhism (or the head of Tibetan Buddhism).
.
michaeljc wrote:the Dalia Lama.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dalia


.

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