What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

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fuki
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:12 pm

Crystal wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:28 pm

How is that even relevant ?.....the Dalai lama isn't the head of Buddhism (or the head of Tibetan Buddhism)
It's called deflection.... :)

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:37 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:09 pm
michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:43 am
Why is the subject so difficult?
No difficulty, Factory farming is a hell and the worst crime in history. no, it isn't-That being said incorrectlysome ppl are born in cultures or situations where this is the norm, however this is Buddhist forum translated:Fuki's Placeand keeping the precept of no killing in mind this topic can never be about justifying or somehow pretending killing is just normal, yet you do it all time by ignoring nutrient pollution caused by them there giant zucchini you eat and entertain us withdespite personal situations your relationship with that zucchini looked personalwe might encounter like a cat in Africa or whatever.of course because a cat in Africa is also not important, like nutrient pollution isn't important to YOU therefore you are dismissing what is actually occurring in the rest of the world outside of your head/heart/mind

Would you just for the sake of your culture resist a global change in humans where we no longer kill and exploit animals? you sound like your panhandling on the subway for loose coins, as a result all you'll get is 2 centsJustifying eating meat is one thing no, it's many thingsbut if the day comes when the majority of ppl want this change would you resist and keep killing animals eventhough you could switch to "green farming" with the help of your government or would you defend a culture of killing? you defend the culture of killing by dismissing the death of the environment by dismissing nutrient pollution, not to mention how many creatures are killed by agricultural machinery when fields are ploughed and harvested

The cat example has nothing to do with the subject of factory farming, everything is interconnected!!!we had similair discussions before like when you or I would come across a dying animal in pain on the road, what we would do. But thats not the topic you're not discussing a topic, your requesting everyone look through your tunnel of vision and agree with itor nor would such an act of putting a being out of its misery (humans included) relates to killing for food,it's all related!nor does one act justify another act, exactly! Because they ALL matter!there's a danger in such a narrative and I keep telling you thatto somehow normalize or justify human activity of breeding and killing.yet you not only normalize the impact of nutrient pollution, you support of by ignoring it altogether!

Humansyou included if honestly looking in the mirror can acknowledge we behave like a plague spreading on this planet, but even now most of us you includedrather justify our actions and narrative instead of acknowledging we fucked up and can and should do much better, but the usual narrative is to justify our own actions.
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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm

Whenever killing beings due to agricultural machinery is brought up I find that deflective to the topic of raping/enslaving and killing sentient beings, yes. Call it ignoring if you will but my point is and will always remain with factory farming. Anyone here may talk about nutrient pollution or agricultural machinary but I've mention that for over 30 years my focus lies elsewhere, plus I dont have the knowledge or science with those matters only the "science" of entering the body of a pig in a slaughterhouse and personally experiencing the horror of that focal point. So for "spiritual" reasons and not so much enviromental or knowing that killing beings is sometimes inevitable (like eating a fly when riding a bycicle) is no comparing to what we do to farming animals #karma

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:54 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm
Whenever killing beings due to agricultural machinery is brought up I find that deflective to the topic of raping/enslaving and killing sentient beings, yes.because you're stuck, passionate about 1 aspect of agriculture while willfully wearing blinders, refusing to have open dialogue regarding the rest, including your personal contribution to itCall it ignoring if you will but my point is and will always remain with factory farming. Do you know why? Because it's comfortable- Because you don't have to hold yourself accountable, as most that are passionate about animals don't, which contributes to the dysfunction of agricultural practices and shuns, as in builds a wall, in an effort to silence dialogueAnyone here may talk about nutrient pollution or agricultural machinary but I've mention that for over 30 years my focus lies elsewhere, plus I dont have the knowledge or science with those matters only the "science" of entering the body of a pig in a slaughterhouse and personally experiencing the horror of that focal point.I agree, anyone could talk about nutrient pollution and the creatures that are killed in the process of farming produce, but you refuse- So for "spiritual" reasons and not so much enviromental or knowing that killing beings is sometimes inevitable (like eating a fly when riding a bycicle) is no comparing to what we do to farming animals #karma No spirit is contained, like a genie in a bottle, in complete isolation- Spirits blend, as you have experienced- Mind alienates, which is what you're practicing - #karma

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:59 pm

Would you prefer me to lie or pretend I'm interested in something I'm not? Feel free to talk about anything, and let others be free in joining or ignoring perhaps?
:115:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:11 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:59 pm
Would you prefer me to lie or pretend I'm interested in something I'm not?Of course not- However, when you present preference and opinion as fact, which is kind of like lying, I will speak up/out- Feel free to talk about anything, That's a bit of a contradiction 😂and let others be free in joining or ignoring perhaps? Nobody is preventing them! :namaste:
:115:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:17 pm

Verbal statements are never facts, however I know all about facts and I presented them here, but nitpicking on words leads to nowhere, hence I can lose interest in verbal battles or positions.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:25 pm

Humans if honestly looking in the mirror can acknowledge we behave like a plague spreading on this planet
I am in absolute agreement with you on this. The obvious driving force is overpopulation. Not that I am advocating a solution.

The purpose of my Koan was to emphasise that we deal with realities. "The road to disaster is littered with good intentions"

Flagellating ourselves with ideals does not appeal to me. They can be an underlying theme for sure but ............

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:34 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:17 pm
Verbal statements are never facts, however I know all about facts and I presented them here
.

Exactly my point ..

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm

Michael thanks, yes my point is more about the collective, and ofcourse personal reference points are then injected in the discussion. I just hope the topic does not polarize like that, ofcourse there are different realities/situations in the sense of what you encounter and I encounter in daily life and our actions "must" be in generating the most compassionate act possible, I've spoken privately with teachers and although they support my cause they themselves have other jobs to do apparently. I'm just curious from the sense of a Buddhist community how important we think it is in promoting "animal welfare" in the sense of not looking away and realizing this is an issue, collectively.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:41 pm

I was talking to a teacher once that had trained for many years in the US. She had worked with a lot of students

She said, "It was difficult, many students are very idealistic"

I observe the same thing. Many appear to be carrying heavy baggage - resentment even, about some thing or another that involves them claiming the moral high-ground

I am idealistic too.

M

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:46 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:35 pm
Michael thanks, yes my point is more about the collective, and ofcourse personal reference points are then injected in the discussion. I just hope the topic does not polarize like that, ofcourse there are different realities/situations in the sense of what you encounter and I encounter in daily life and our actions "must" be in generating the most compassionate act possible, I've spoken privately with teachers and although they support my cause they themselves have other jobs to do apparently. I'm just curious from the sense of a Buddhist community how important we think it is in promoting "animal welfare" in the sense of not looking away and realizing this is an issue, collectively.
I am never interested in collectively supporting anything political. Political activation groups get hijacked by extremists. It makes me cringe. You have witnessed it yourself. I don't think it is a good idea the Zen should be involved in such things. Go into prisons and teach zazen (and the like) yes

That's just me

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:49 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:41 pm
I was talking to a teacher once that had trained for many years in the US. She had worked with a lot of students

She said, "It was difficult, many students are very idealistic"

I observe the same thing. Many appear to be carrying heavy baggage - resentment even, about some thing or another that involves them claiming the moral high-ground

I am idealistic too.

M
Although I support the cause of "veganism" I hardly can be in the room with idealic ppl or ppl who make it into a "thing" But we do whatever inspires or moves us, ideally :lol: not from the samsaric mind ofcourse but I believe we find common ground (as if there are multiple grounds, the whole penthouse is an illusion) if working together, though there will always be conflict of interest, but I think things like "economy" or "culture" are not helpful.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:54 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:46 pm

I am never interested in collectively supporting anything political. Political activation groups get hijacked by extremists. It makes me cringe. You have witnessed it yourself. I don't think it is a good idea the Zen should be involved in such things. Go into prisons and teach zazen (and the like) yes

That's just me
Not interested in politics but if talking about animal welfare ppl immediately lock you in a mental picture or a side, however there is no such thing as Zen Buddhism in itself, its a respons to causes and conditions or sentience, so one can't seperate the function of Buddhism with daily life...coming to Zen 20+ years ago I found it very selfish, searching for awakening of a character which is merely a figment of imagination, so to me the function of Zen knows no seperation, thus including farm animals, which killing we do is not seperate from human wars, but that's a karmic point which goes beyond the intellect.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:55 pm

Michael, I'm very idealistic- :hatsoff: Perhaps even more so these days with so much in flux- 3 feet forward, 2 in reverse, is still progress!

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:01 pm

Mike I do teach zazen to numerous of humans, including (ex)convicts, which is fine and helps them personally, but teaching zazen and then going to the supermarket to buy/eat a stake has nothing to do with compassion/wisdom ofcourse, ppl use "meditation" for their own selfish gain, you can call it zazen or Buddhism but it has nothing to do with actual Zen or its original function. Nothing idealic about that, just facts. But humans are around about 5 million years, and it takes a while until we collectively shift from being a primitive species. Though in old times humans we're perfectly awake, but we don't have those records in writing that is.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:11 pm

Though in old times humans we're perfectly awake
I agree entirely with this - so are children and animals

Zen, to me is about relief from suffering. Nothing more

Regarding your vegan predicament. I see it as a natural Koan that can be sit with

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:38 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:11 pm

Regarding your vegan predicament. I see it as a natural Koan that can be sit with
Not a predicament Mike, nor something needed to sit with, just exploring the "buddhist" and "vegan" world to see if there's any job security in combining them. I think for a few hundred years not until it becomes more popular, though some teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh get it already. There's nothing wrong with the universe, what's wrong is how we look "at" it, and looking is part of thinking/behaving ofcourse especially in reference to humans, the fact that such a thing as buddhadharma exists says enough already, we agree on that.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by desertwoodworker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm

I remember well what Master Sheng Yen would encourage us, from time to time -- whether we'd taken the Lay-Person Precepts with him or not -- that, when the topic of eating meat and killing animals for food came up, it would be good if we just consider where the meat comes from.

He was a monk, and did not eat meat, and he knew that the lay people in his sangha were not likely to become vegetarians.

For those who were meat-eaters in their daily life (retreats and Ch'an Center Sunday meals were purely vegetarian), again, he'd advise, "Just remember where it comes from".

Sorry, this might not address the topic of this thread at all, but maybe it's possibly related.

--Joe

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 pm

Was he offering encouragement to consider the source of all the food?

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