What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Moderator: fuki

Turtle Clan
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:25 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Turtle Clan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:07 am

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:54 pm
michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:46 pm
I don't think it is a good idea the Zen should be involved in such things.
... however there is no such thing as Zen Buddhism in itself, its a respons to causes and conditions or sentience, so one can't seperate the function of Buddhism with daily life... so to me the function of Zen knows no seperation, thus including farm animals, which killing we do is not seperate from human wars, but that's a karmic point which goes beyond the intellect.
This whole issue of meat eating and the intention one brings as a Buddhist to one’s actions rests (IMO) on the understanding and realization of the first noble truth of suffering. How can a practicing Buddhist begin to progress on the path of awakening without cultivating full compassion for fellow sentient beings and making that compassion the basis for our encounters with “others”. If one accepts that animals are, like we humans, involved in their own karmic suffering, by what wholesome intent can we justify interfering with and manipulating that process to satisfy our sensory cravings. Many species are obliged to kill others in order to survive. That is their difficult karma. The human animal, for the most part, no longer needs to do this. Bodily sustenance does not require the eating of animals. The intentional act to continue doing so is indeed morally and karmically significant.

p22
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am

Michael maintained, years back, that there would be a pandemic- And here we are- He also spoke about the possibility of an ice age-

I'm maintaining that the issue isn't specifically meat but agricultural practices as a whole- The information is readily available, in abundance- Yet the intention is to ignore it-

I can't begin to tell you how often I think of Monsanto Man, that dude on ZFI who consistently posted information about genetically modified organisms, Monsanto and was banned for it- But now you can't walk into a grocery without seeing the Non GMO Project logo on packaging-

Yet you guys are like it will take 400+ years to change the industry- And while I doubt humans will make it 400+ years without enormous change, where did you come up with that number?

Turtle Clan
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:25 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Turtle Clan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:29 am

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am
Michael maintained, years back, that there would be a pandemic- And here we are- He also spoke about the possibility of an ice age-
Many people, probably more than 400, among them epidemiologists, have said the same and strongly advised that we, “the world”, should be ready and here we are ... As for an ice age, I couldn’t say. It doesn’t seem relevant to the topic at hand.
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am
I'm maintaining that the issue isn't specifically meat but agricultural practices as a whole- The information is readily available, in abundance- Yet the intention is to ignore it-
This is the “dharmavegan” thread so the issue here is the eating of animals and the implications of that intention/choice for one’s practice and expressions of personal dharma. For sure agricultural practices as a whole have a huge harmful impact on global ecology but that is a worthy topic for a different thread, I would say.
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am
Yet you guys are like it will take 400+ years to change the industry- And while I doubt humans will make it 400+ years without enormous change, where did you come up with that number?
I have no idea where that number comes from and don’t recall using it except for above, in this very post. It sounds like saying it will take “a long time” while maintaining a hope that it is possible.

michaeljc
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:33 am

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:32 am

For sure agricultural practices as a whole have a huge harmful impact on global ecology but that is a worthy topic for a different thread, I would say.
Turtle -

i would say that agriculture is directly linked to the topic. If the world stops eating meat, fish, eggs, dairy products, then this rich protein has to be replaced with something. Do the numbers - it would require a massive increase in tilled land with the obvious environmental impact.

No - we can't feed the world with organic and environmentally friendly systems alone.

I would be happy to live on a vegetarian diet for the rest of my life, providing it was of the right ingredients and prepared by a good vegetarian cook.

The best vege food I have eaten was in the Thrussle Hole Abbey, England. A magnificent cook was in residence. I was thinking - man there are no sacrifices going on here. I was only there a few days.

Cheers

m

p22
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:25 pm

Turtle Clan wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:29 am
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am
Michael maintained, years back, that there would be a pandemic- And here we are- He also spoke about the possibility of an ice age-
Many people, probably more than 400, among them epidemiologists, have said the same and strongly advised that we, “the world”, should be ready and here we are ... As for an ice age, I couldn’t say. It doesn’t seem relevant to the topic at hand.
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am
I'm maintaining that the issue isn't specifically meat but agricultural practices as a whole- The information is readily available, in abundance- Yet the intention is to ignore it-
This is the “dharmavegan” thread so the issue here is the eating of animals and the implications of that intention/choice for one’s practice and expressions of personal dharma. For sure agricultural practices as a whole have a huge harmful impact on global ecology but that is a worthy topic for a different thread, I would say.
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 am
Yet you guys are like it will take 400+ years to change the industry- And while I doubt humans will make it 400+ years without enormous change, where did you come up with that number?
I have no idea where that number comes from and don’t recall using it except for above, in this very post. It sounds like saying it will take “a long time” while maintaining a hope that it is possible.
What does wanting to just solely discuss animals depend upon?

Turtle Clan
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:25 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Turtle Clan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:53 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:32 am
i would say that agriculture is directly linked to the topic. If the world stops eating meat, fish, eggs, dairy products, then this rich protein has to be replaced with something. Do the numbers - it would require a massive increase in tilled land with the obvious environmental impact.
The topic is not how to feed the world’s overwhelming population. It is how each individual who aspires to can reduce the harmful effects of their own existence and how/if the teachings of Buddhism can provide the guidelines and motivations for doing so.
michaeljc wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:32 am
No - we can't feed the world with organic and environmentally friendly systems alone.
I don’t know, I didn’t say we could. Probably not. What we can do is reduce the harm we cause. Yes I agree that any form of agriculture causes harm to living beings. We have to eat. We can cause less harm in this instance by being less numerous and eating less if we are eating excessively.
michaeljc wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:32 am
i I would be happy to live on a vegetarian diet for the rest of my life, providing it was of the right ingredients and prepared by a good vegetarian cook.

The best vege food I have eaten was in the Thrussle Hole Abbey, England. A magnificent cook was in residence. I was thinking - man there are no sacrifices going on here. I was only there a few days.
The right ingredients are almost always available and you and your family could learn to become good vegetarian cooks. What is preventing you? “There are no sacrifices going on here” is an important thought. Why did you let go of it?
Last edited by Turtle Clan on Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Turtle Clan
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:25 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Turtle Clan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:25 pm

What does wanting to just solely discuss animals depend upon?
I am not wanting to just discuss animals at all. The discussion in this thread is, as I see it, about how the consequences of an individual’s adherence and commitment to the Buddhist precepts might affect the lives and well being of other sentient beings. If I can not kill others, not steal from them the possibility of well being and integrity , and not lie to myself through rationalization and willful ignorance... that’s a good start, isn’t it?

p22
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 pm

Turtle Clan wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:25 pm

What does wanting to just solely discuss animals depend upon?
I am not wanting to just discuss animals at all. The discussion in this thread is, as I see it, about how the consequences of an individual’s adherence and commitment to the Buddhist precepts might affect the lives and well being of other sentient beings. If I can not kill others, not steal from them the possibility of well being and integrity , and not lie to myself through rationalization and willful ignorance... that’s a good start, isn’t it?
A good place to begin is to consider the sources of all food consumed-

Why encourage anyone to eat the vegetables they've access to without encouraging them to consider how they were produced?

Removal of trees, producing seeds, plowing of fields, erosion, excessive fertilizer, pesticide, their impact on insects, human pickers, irrigation, the waterways, wildlife, distribution by barge and semi across oceans and countries without causing any harm or killing?

All this to produce a vegetable that has been forced with so much nutrient to grow that it not only appears to the naked eye like a cellulose sponge but once in your mouth, without any doubt, has the texture of one-

Nothing
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:55 am
Location: Skopje, Macedonia
Contact:

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Nothing » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:51 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 pm
Turtle Clan wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:25 pm

What does wanting to just solely discuss animals depend upon?
I am not wanting to just discuss animals at all. The discussion in this thread is, as I see it, about how the consequences of an individual’s adherence and commitment to the Buddhist precepts might affect the lives and well being of other sentient beings. If I can not kill others, not steal from them the possibility of well being and integrity , and not lie to myself through rationalization and willful ignorance... that’s a good start, isn’t it?
A good place to begin is to consider the sources of all food consumed-

Why encourage anyone to eat the vegetables they've access to without encouraging them to consider how they were produced?

Removal of trees, producing seeds, plowing of fields, erosion, excessive fertilizer, pesticide, their impact on insects, human pickers, irrigation, the waterways, wildlife, distribution by barge and semi across oceans and countries without causing any harm or killing?

All this to produce a vegetable that has been forced with so much nutrient to grow that it not only appears to the naked eye like a cellulose sponge but once in your mouth, without any doubt, has the texture of one-
I have not met vegans, or vegeterians who are not aware of how veggies are produced and the impact on the environment.
Being vegan is not perfect, but it involves the least harm and damage when it comes to the environment and the animals. ;)

Yes, the ecosystem is polluted, negatively impacted in the ways you mentioned, and animals are killed in the process of producing the veggies.
And now in addition to the harm involved by producing veggies, you have excessive additional killing every year of at least 70 billion animals if you consume meat, dairy eggs and excessive additional killing of animals (insects) in order to produce food for the animals to grow and to be turned into meat and to that also add the removal of trees, producing seeds, plowing of fields, erosion, excessive fertilizer, pesticide, their impact on insects, human pickers, irrigation, the waterways, wildlife to produce food for the factory farms, to build factory farms and the pollution done to the eco system (land, water, air) by the factory farms.

There is a huge difference by the harm done to the environment and the caused suffering and deaths of animals by being on vegan/vegetarian diet vs meat diet.

No matter whether you are concerned about the health, the environment or the well being of animals, meat free diet is the best choice on long term, especially animal products free diet, cause livestock farming is not sustainable and is a waste of limited resources that can be allocated much better for the collective well being and the factory farming is just opposite of that, the biggest threat to human existence.

So comments like ask the Dalai Lama, he is eating meat, what about the animals (insects) killed by growing crops, b12 deficiency, malnutrition etc.. are nothing else but masterful deflecting from the real issue at hand (the unnecessary suffering of our fellow sentient beings caused by our self preoccupation and ignorance ) and intellectual dishonesty and excuse to justify the consumption of dead animals in order to satisfy our taste buds, deep rooted emotional attachment to the act of consuming meat. :)
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

avisitor
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:01 am

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by avisitor » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:01 pm

It has become obvious that the world is not so simple anymore.
And a simple walk around the park could mean stepping upon ants which help clean up waste
So, it seems to be a matter of intent which affects us or Karma???
What are your intentions when you acted such and such??

p22
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:01 pm

Viktor, the vegan narrative is no more than an imaginary wall dependent upon a desire to protect talking points, not all beings, and deflect-

Veganism isn't the lesser of anything, as in better- To label it as such is scapegoating- And if upon insistence that an evil exists, it's the entire agriculture industry as a whole- The only way to change it would be through collaboration-

:namaste:

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:14 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:01 pm
So, it seems to be a matter of intent which affects us or Karma???
Yes, unintentionally stepping on an ant can happen,
but collecting ants, doing cruel research on them, rape them, milk them, and use them purely for profit (financially, emotionally or "scientifically) is ofcourse an intention from the three poisons.

"scientists" do horrible, painful expirements on ants in labs for instance,
and this is what humans do to bees; (as already shown on page 1 of this thread)
but it shows people's intentions and also ignorance (mostly consumers)

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:15 pm

Nothing wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:51 pm

I have not met vegans, or vegeterians who are not aware of how veggies are produced and the impact on the environment.
Being vegan is not perfect, but it involves the least harm and damage when it comes to the environment and the animals. ;)

Yes, the ecosystem is polluted, negatively impacted in the ways you mentioned, and animals are killed in the process of producing the veggies.
And now in addition to the harm involved by producing veggies, you have excessive additional killing every year of at least 70 billion animals if you consume meat, dairy eggs and excessive additional killing of animals (insects) in order to produce food for the animals to grow and to be turned into meat and to that also add the removal of trees, producing seeds, plowing of fields, erosion, excessive fertilizer, pesticide, their impact on insects, human pickers, irrigation, the waterways, wildlife to produce food for the factory farms, to build factory farms and the pollution done to the eco system (land, water, air) by the factory farms.

There is a huge difference by the harm done to the environment and the caused suffering and deaths of animals by being on vegan/vegetarian diet vs meat diet.

No matter whether you are concerned about the health, the environment or the well being of animals, meat free diet is the best choice on long term, especially animal products free diet, cause livestock farming is not sustainable and is a waste of limited resources that can be allocated much better for the collective well being and the factory farming is just opposite of that, the biggest threat to human existence.

So comments like ask the Dalai Lama, he is eating meat, what about the animals (insects) killed by growing crops, b12 deficiency, malnutrition etc.. are nothing else but masterful deflecting from the real issue at hand (the unnecessary suffering of our fellow sentient beings caused by our self preoccupation and ignorance ) and intellectual dishonesty and excuse to justify the consumption of dead animals in order to satisfy our taste buds, deep rooted emotional attachment to the act of consuming meat. :)
:560:

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:24 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 pm

Why encourage anyone to eat the vegetables they've access to without encouraging them to consider how they were produced?
If you would watch a film like dominion you wouldn't even ask that question.
https://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/dominion-2018/

Furthermore most "vegans" or just ppl conscious of their food, buy it locally or grow it themselves, or if that's not possible shop consciously even when on a vegan diet, it's silly to think that people who don't consume animal products them soehow do not care about the production and consequences of their vegetables, or clothing, or any company, including one's bank or health insurance company, because most of them indeed deal in child labor, weapons, animal cruelty, deforestation, human slavery etc etc..."vegans" precisely due to being conscious of the hells of factory farming or therefore conscious of all their products they buy or consume, it's just a natural step, it's like Buddhist practise, it doesn't involve a narrative. Therefore encouraging ppl to go vegetarian, is like a first step to veganism and lots of other things, we just naturally become more conscious of our actions and feel responsible. I don't blindly buy clothes anywhere, I first check their ecological footprint of the company, check if they invest in other things like animal cruelty, child labor, war and weapons etc


All what you say about the destruction of rainforests etc, yes that happens mainly to feed livestock, so the first step is to end factory farming.

p22
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 7:49 pm

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:24 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:20 pm

Why encourage anyone to eat the vegetables they've access to without encouraging them to consider how they were produced?
If you would watch a film like dominion you wouldn't even ask that question.
https://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/dominion-2018/

Furthermore most "vegans" or just ppl conscious of their food, buy it locally or grow it themselves, or if that's not possible shop consciously even when on a vegan diet, it's silly to think that people who don't consume animal products them soehow do not care about the production and consequences of their vegetables, or clothing, or any company, including one's bank or health insurance company, because most of them indeed deal in child labor, weapons, animal cruelty, deforestation, human slavery etc etc..."vegans" precisely due to being conscious of the hells of factory farming or therefore conscious of all their products they buy or consume, it's just a natural step, it's like Buddhist practise, it doesn't involve a narrative. Therefore encouraging ppl to go vegetarian, is like a first step to veganism and lots of other things, we just naturally become more conscious of our actions and feel responsible. I don't blindly buy clothes anywhere, I first check their ecological footprint of the company, check if they invest in other things like animal cruelty, child labor, war and weapons etc


All what you say about the destruction of rainforests etc, yes that happens mainly to feed livestock, so the first step is to end factory farming.

Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie, Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher; white privilege- Charlie Brown's teacher, Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher- Charlie Brown's teacher, white privilege: Charlie Brown's teacher white privilege .. ad nauseam ..

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:48 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:22 pm

Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie, Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher; white privilege- Charlie Brown's teacher, Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher Charlie Brown's teacher- Charlie Brown's teacher, white privilege: Charlie Brown's teacher white privilege .. ad nauseam ..
No clue what this means.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:21 pm

Speaking of culture :D


Nothing
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:55 am
Location: Skopje, Macedonia
Contact:

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Nothing » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:48 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:01 pm
Viktor, the vegan narrative is no more than an imaginary wall dependent upon a desire to protect talking points, not all beings, and deflect-

Veganism isn't the lesser of anything, as in better- To label it as such is scapegoating- And if upon insistence that an evil exists, it's the entire agriculture industry as a whole- The only way to change it would be through collaboration-

:namaste:
Teresa, it has nothing to do to protect talking points, especially not when is seen from the perspective of the Buddhadharma and the ideal of bodhictta. It is hypocritical to talk about bodhicitta and support the animal factory farming by being part of the supply and demand.

There is a difference between intentional and unintentional harm. You plow the fields in order to eat something and in the process there is harm to certain animals. You need to eat something, right? Even with the best agricultural practice there is some harm involved as a byproduct of plowing the field and that is unavoidable, we can't change that.

When it come to animal farming, there is an intentional harm involved, much like a holocaust and also there is a harm to the environment and to the rest of the animals. It is manifestation of the 3 poisons in play day by day.

No one is denying that there should not be changes to the agricultural practices , and one can do that while at the same time one is abstaining to be part of the animal industry.

Is someone is molesting a child and you come to him/her and say that he/she should not do that and the reply you get is: But you eat vegetables. Are you going to say, ah yes, you are right, I harm animals by eating vegetables, keep on molesting the child? :D

If someone is worried about where their vegetables come from and the harm that is done to the ecosystem and the animals by producing them then again one should look back at the factory farming. Why?
Because there are at least 70 billion land animals that kept for meat and there is population of 7 billion people and that says a lot why the agricultural practices are as they are.
The majority of the agricultural land is for grazing and to grow animal feed, so again animal factory farming is to blame mostly for the impact that the agriculture has on the eco system (habitat destruction,rain forests,air,water,extinction of species) and for millions of starving people. ;)

96% of the GMO soy grown in amazon after deforestation is animal feed for the farms in USA and that speaks volumes and makes it clear why a question like "Why encourage anyone to eat the vegetables they've access to without encouraging them to consider how they were produced?" is superfluous and maybe a better question would be "Why encourage anyone to eat meat/animals products they've access to without encouraging them to consider how they were produced?" :112:
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

michaeljc
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:33 am

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:58 am

Could someone here please clearly define for me what constitutes a factory farm and what does not

I need to know what is being talked about here please

michaeljc
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:33 am

Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:14 am

When it come to animal farming, there is an intentional harm involved, much like a holocaust and also there is a harm to the environment and to the rest of the animals. It is manifestation of the 3 poisons in play day by day.
This makes heavy reading. Maybe its a 4th poison?

Post Reply