What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:16 am

Michael, aka intensive animal farming/mega-farming
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensi ... al_farming

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:33 am

Fuki

Is any animal farming system OK?

Given that man has been raising animals for food for millennia. When and where did it become immoral?

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by Turtle Clan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:37 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:33 am
Fuki

Is any animal farming system OK?

Given that man has been raising animals for food for millennia. When and where did it become immoral?
When was intentional killing ever moral or even considered so?

Back in the day, when humans were hunter gatherers, animals were killed individually for the most part, as needed. Ceremonies were held giving thanks to and asking for understanding and forgiveness from the animal spirits. Nomadic pastoralists likewise lived in respect of their herds, killing infrequently and only as needed, with honor and recognition of the sacrifice inherent in the animal’s death.

Your question assumes that raising animals for food is moral. Has it always been so or did it become so a some point in the development of human society? I think perceptions of killing animals began to turn around (from viewing the killing as regrettable though necessary) when certain cultures began to make animal sacrifice to their gods and killing came to be seen as a moral and righteous act.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:21 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:33 am
Fuki

Is any animal farming system OK?
If you want to understand how that question sounds here, then translating it would be like me asking you;
Mike, is any human farming system OK? ;)
Given that man has been raising animals for food for millennia. When and where did it become immoral?
James already gave a great answer, I had something similar in mind comparing the iron age with todays causes and conditions, that being said, I'm concerned with the here and now and how we as humans (and buddhists) can collectively make a change for the better. As you know there's much room for improvement in our personal life and our interactions with others, for me others mean animals as much as the human species/interactions. And interactions for me aren't limited to beings we personally meet in daily life, it includes the unseen or that which society/companies try to hide to the public eye too. And I'm interested in how the Buddhist community seems to care little for it, and how many teachers/sangha seem to ignore daily life interactions in relation to all beings. Promoting vegetarian/vegan lifestyle is that something outrageous especially keeping the precepts in mind?

And I'm all for helping farmers too, meat is too cheap, they too get exploited by the supermarkets of this sad human plutocratic/kapatalistic construction, which the animals mostly pay the price for, and humans too in third world countries.

As said earlier for me Buddhism is a collective failure to humanity if it's only about getting some locals in a sangha together for practise and "relieving personal suffering" and keep a blind eye to what happens in factory farming, it's not congruent with the mahayana spirit. All religions (at least those I'm familiar" with) fail here, its mostly about salvation for a character/self/soul which never existed in the first place, which ironically is a teachers job ofcourse, deconstructing the illusory self. But some teachers after teaching their students then go eat a stake, drink milk and eat eggs, nope they just don't get it. They are meditation teachers, creatures of habit, not living Buddhas.

I'm saying this because I'm very disappointed in Buddhism in that sense, especially in todays current age, lacking engagement and congruent behaviour.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:15 am

Re: my prediction of a pandemic: No, I don’t have mystical powers. It comes primarily from observation of patterns in nature.

Our whole world is a web of interlinked entities. Pull one strand and everything else is effected to one degree or another. This is why e.g. well-intended environmental or economic programs can fail by causing more harm than what they resolve. For every gain there is a loss. Striking a desirable outcome requires both careful calculation and sometimes luck. It’s called the law of unintended consequences, of which it appears that many idealists are unaware.

Take for example, if one was to ban all meat consumption or pesticides in Africa. Millions would starve and die.

Re: the pandemic. Nature shows us that when one species dominates to the detriment of others eventually a re-balance occurs. In both intensive chicken and pig production units antibiotics are fed as a routine. The species is too dense and nature fights back to ensure life on Earth persists. Now antibiotic resistance is a major problem. The natural system is always one step ahead through e.g. new viruses.

Viral pandemics are part of human history and are more infectious and fatal in dense communities – as we see right now.
I simply observed that humans had become a heavily dominating species and felt that nature would sooner or later re-balance this. Without this marvelous tool of evolution we would not be here today.

We do not need to delve into every aspect of human influence. Its too late for this IMO. We are too many and sooner or later will pay the price either naturally or politically - probably both in conjunction.

Th human race has never been more vulnerable. One week without satellites or main-grid power then we in rich countries would revert to jungle law. After 4 days without food humans become animals.

I will add that I had a very strong premonition that something big was coming prior to the covid outbreak. Bigger yet, than what we have experience to date.

As I’m seeing right now

M

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:20 am

I never considered you mystical, Michael- 😊

Perhaps, after the big thing occurs, knowledge will be applied wisely- Discussing and debating the collective, current situation might benefit the survivors- Which is considerably different than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic-

People have been experiencing a sense of impending doom for some time- I had three premonitions- The first was a tree falling- The second was a set- The first a very small white coffin balanced on a precipice, the second a very large dark wood coffin in a dark room receiving diffused light from the only window beside it- And the third was scorched earth and vegetation-

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by michaeljc » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:52 am

gloomy couple ain't we :lol:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:30 am

😊

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:44 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:15 am

Take for example, if one was to ban all meat consumption or pesticides in Africa. Millions would starve and die.
Mike, first of all, no one not even me, would advocate an overnight ban on meat
second of all you know that world hunger in developed countries is due to "us" rich folks in the West.
When representatives meet at the World Food Summit they supposedly focus on how to get food into the mouths of nearly one billion people who are currently undernourished. However, at all the dinners they attend you can expect to see the consumption of large quantities of meat. And herein lies the contradiction.

People go hungry because much of arable land is used to grow feed grain for animals rather than people. In the US, 157 million tons of cereals, legumes and vegetable protein – all suitable for human consumption – is fed to livestock to produce just 28 million tons of animal protein in the form of meat.

In developing countries, using land to create an artificial food chain has resulted in misery for hundreds of millions of people. An acre of cereal produces five times more protein than an acre used for meat production; legumes such as beans, peas and lentils can produce 10 times more protein and, in the case of soya, 30 times more.

Global corporations which supply the seeds, chemicals and cattle and which control the slaughterhouses, marketing and distribution of beef, eagerly promote grain-fed livestock. They equate it with a country’s prestige and climbing the “protein ladder” becomes the mark of success.

Enlarging their meat supply is the first step for all developing countries. They start with chicken and egg production and, as their economies grow, climb the protein ladder to pork, milk, and dairy products, then to grass-fed beef and finally to grain-fed beef. Encouraging this process advances the interests of agribusinesses and two-thirds of the grain exported from the USA goes to feed livestock. The process really got underway when “green revolution” technology produced grain surpluses in the 1970s. The UN’s Food and Agricultural Organisation encouraged it and the USA government linked its food aid programme to the producing of feed grain and gave low-interest loans to establish grain-fed poultry operations. Many nations have attempted to remain high on the protein ladder long after the grain surpluses disappeared.

Human consequences of the shift from food to feed were dramatically illustrated during the Ethiopian famine in 1984. While people starved, Ethiopia was growing linseed cake, cottonseed cake and rapeseed meal for European livestock. Millions of acres of land in the developing world are used for this purpose. Tragically, 80 per cent of the world’s hungry children live in countries with food surpluses which are fed to animals for consumption by the affluent.

The irony is that millions of consumers in the first world are dying from diseases of affluence such as heart attacks, strokes, diabetes and cancer, brought on by eating animal products, while the world’s poor are dying from diseases of poverty. We are long overdue for a global discussion on how to promote a diversified, high-protein, vegetarian diet for the human race.

Jeremy Rifkin is the author of Beyond Beef: The Rise and Fall of the Cattle Culture (Plume, 1992), and The Biotech Century (Victor Gollancz,1998). He is also the president of the Foundation on Economic Trends in Washington DC, USA.

Despite the rich diversity of foods found all over the world, one third of its population does not have enough to eat. Today, hunger is a massive problem in many parts of Africa, Asia and South America and the future is not looking good. The global population is set to rise from 6.5 billion (2006) to 9.3 billion by 2050 (2) and Worldwatch reports (3) forecast severe global food shortages leading to famine on an unprecedented scale.

This misery is partly a direct result of our desire to eat meat. Children in the developing world starve next to fields of food destined for export as animal feed, to support the meat-hungry cultures of the rich world. While millions die, one third of the world's grain production is fed to farmed animals in rich countries (4).

If animal farming were to stop and we were to use the land to grow grain to feed ourselves, we could feed every single person on this planet. Consuming crops directly - rather than feeding them to animals and then eating animals - is a far more efficient way to feed the world. This Viva! Guide looks at why eating meat is a major cause of world hunger and how vegetarianism can provide a solution.
https://www.viva.org.uk/feed-world

Although I could talk about this until weighing an ounce (though weighing an ounce or even less then that does happen ofcourse, but that's not from talking) the topic is mostly (for me) about raising awareness of the cruelty of factory farming, and why to me it seems weird that in some Buddhist countries cultures, like the Japanese and the tibetian forms of Buddhism, eating meat (milk/eggs) seems something accepted, which I find very strange, taking the precepts in mind, or the whole "wisdom/compassion" thingy Buddhists refer to so often.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:53 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:15 am
Re: my prediction of a pandemic: No, I don’t have mystical powers. It comes primarily from observation of patterns in nature.
When I was an eight year old boy, in 1984-ish dutch scientists (and globally) have warned about pandemics due to how we treat animals in factory farming and wildlife. About every few years, but sometimes every year, zoonoses break out in this country, dutch people have died from BSE and other illnesses directly linked and caused by factory farming. The government knows it, they did little to prevent it, every government since at least the 80's know about these things, but they only care for a quick buck, I have said this thousands of times already, stocking so many animals in cramped places goes with zoonoses, they are constantly circulating, and even now with a global pandemic everything is about fabricating a vaccine, no government is interested in the cause and prevention of pandemics, only money at the expense of animals and humans in third world countries.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:36 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:21 pm


As said earlier for me Buddhism is a collective failure to humanity if....
ps some of the things I wrote were a bit harsh, so apalogies if this offended Buddhists.
Buddhists are conditioned creatures too and (ironically) attach to causes and conditions which formate a story known as "a culture" and form an (protective) identity, I might generalize ppl too much and set the bar to high in my expectations of the buddhist community. Ofcourse Buddhism isn't a failure but I might conflate social activism with the buddhadharma, ofcourse they're not mutually exclusive, but also not the same. My only hope is to inspire and raise awareness, so some harsh comments I see could be counterproductive. Though my view remains the same (about factory farming etc) there's also a personal "tension" I meet with encountering Buddhists (especialy teachers) who still consume animal products or/and who fail to promote this and do not see it as an important functioning of the buddhadharma, I will always see it as a major part of buddhism (activism), but it's counterproductive to generalize and say buddhism is a failure just because it's not generaly accepted, or practised.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:31 pm


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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:50 am

"It isn't perfect .."

No, it isn't- Because the overall impact of food producing practices are destroying the environment-

Avocado:

Grown in: California, Florida and Hawaii- (US)
Mexico

Image

It's about 1,650 miles from here (Ohio/LakeErie) just to the "border" of Mexico-

The only avocados distributed to this section of the country come from Mexico-

Very,very rarely Florida - California avocados aren't distributed east of the Mississippi river- I've never seen an avocado from Hawaii at the grocery either-

I'll shut up now-

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:42 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:50 am
No, it isn't- Because the overall impact of food producing practices are destroying the environment-
Ofcourse all human systems based on economics-politics is a symphony of destruction. Which can never be a counter argument against veganism.

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:46 pm

I'll shut up now
No don't jump on the "silent express"
if you do then at least knock larry of the train :lol:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:31 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:46 pm
No
Ok- :lol:

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:32 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:42 pm
p22 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:50 am
No, it isn't- Because the overall impact of food producing practices are destroying the environment-
Ofcourse all human systems based on economics-politics is a symphony of destruction. Which can never be a counter argument against veganism.
Well, yes, it can- Actually- Veganism is an industry- An industry under the umbrella of agriculture, manufacturing, packaging, distribution, so forth-

Those pre-made, pre-packaged, spicy, straw-fed scarecrow balls you ate yesterday, for example- :lol:

In no way, shape or form did they resemble any vegetable-

Today, veganism for many means "packaged" carbs, with very little veg- And what veg is included was probably produced thousands of miles away, grown in foreign soil, shipped, prepared and then distributed-

Beautiful video- Thank you for sharing it-

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:56 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:32 pm
Today, veganism for many means "packaged" carbs, with very little veg- And what veg is included was probably produced thousands of miles away, grown in foreign soil, shipped, prepared and then distributed-
Yes sometimes, but it's still a better response to causes and conditions then animal exploitation, "veganism" just like causes and conditions known as "buddhism" is a respons, not something in itself. Like Buddhism its always changing/evolving. I cant be self-supportive in this densly populated part of the world, no land to grow my own food, but I check my products as consciously as I can...ps I dont like advocados or 90% of existing fruit. Plus Ive always been a supporter of eating what grows in the climate one is born in/lives in. Its ridiculous to me to eat things that grow in a tropical climate.
Regarding the vegan label, that is ofcourse so ppl know what to look for, for instance in the supermarket here there are like 8 brands of mayonaise, but one of them has a vegan label, so meaning it has no animal products, ofcourse there are no vegetables in mayonaise, that's not what the vegan labels are about, there are no vegan labels on vegetables ofcourse :lol:

ps those vegan balls are from a nice family run company called vegafit, received the first world wide palmoil free certificate.
http://www.gopalmoilfree.org/go-palm-oi ... rtificate/

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by fuki » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:28 pm

p22 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:32 pm

Beautiful video- Thank you for sharing it-
Here's one I watched yesterday on dutch tv, a rerun of a 2019. (eng subs on for the dutch narration parts)

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Re: What's wrong with.... (the "dharmavegan" topic)

Post by p22 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:23 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:56 pm
p22 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:32 pm
Today, veganism for many means "packaged" carbs, with very little veg- And what veg is included was probably produced thousands of miles away, grown in foreign soil, shipped, prepared and then distributed-


Yes sometimes, but it's still a better response to causes and conditions then animal exploitation, "veganism" just like causes and conditions known as "buddhism" is a respons, not something in itself. Like Buddhism its always changing/evolving. I cant be self-supportive in this densly populated part of the world, no land to grow my own food, but I check my products as consciously as I can...ps I dont like advocados or 90% of existing fruit. Plus Ive always been a supporter of eating what grows in the climate one is born in/lives in. Its ridiculous to me to eat things that grow in a tropical climate.
Regarding the vegan label, that is ofcourse so ppl know what to look for, for instance in the supermarket here there are like 8 brands of mayonaise, but one of them has a vegan label, so meaning it has no animal products, ofcourse there are no vegetables in mayonaise, that's not what the vegan labels are about, there are no vegan labels on vegetables ofcourse :lol:

ps those vegan balls are from a nice family run company called vegafit, received the first world wide palmoil free certificate.
http://www.gopalmoilfree.org/go-palm-oi ... rtificate/
It's all food industry .. all serious stuff, all damaging to the planet-

I apologize for bagging on the vegan balls-

The avocado was just an example -- as were the vegan balls ..

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