(Re)examining the first precept?

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Larry
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by Larry » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:14 pm

I still find neglectful of the care of his family a valid perspective. And, again, a perspective Suzuki himself appeared to share.

avisitor
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by avisitor » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:18 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:15 am
Avi, I'm sorry about your sister- 🌸
Thank you.
It was a long time ago.
But, it seems like yesterday.

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:15 pm

Jundo, no- He wasn't a martyr, or a good priest, to risk the well-being of his family in an effort help the monk and call it good practice- Don't cloak his grave mistake with reverence when it was neglect-

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jundocohen
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:36 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:15 pm
Jundo, no- He wasn't a martyr, or a good priest, to risk the well-being of his family in an effort help the monk and call it good practice- Don't cloak his grave mistake with reverence when it was neglect-
Sometimes in 20/20 hindsight our good intentions seem like mistakes. To give an example, I also had a Japanese fellow come to our Zen group, troubled background, various issues, used to drink and get angry sometimes with me and others, I had to get in the car a couple of times at night to help get him out of some trouble. (I keep the description general with no more specifics because of confidentiality issues). My wife did not care for all this.

Last I heard, he straightened himself out, reconciled with family, and is still sitting Zazen. My wife and I are still here.

Sometimes trying to help people works out.
Last edited by jundocohen on Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

avisitor
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by avisitor » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:44 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:36 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:15 pm
Jundo, no- He wasn't a martyr, or a good priest, to risk the well-being of his family in an effort help the monk and call it good practice- Don't cloak his grave mistake with reverence when it was neglect-
Sometimes in 20/20 hindsight our good intentions seem like mistakes. To give an example, I also had a Japanese fellow come to our Zen group, troubled background, various issues, used to drink and get angry sometimes with me and others, I had to get in the car a couple of times at night to help it out of some trouble. (I keep the description general with no more specifics because of confidentiality issues). My wife did not care for all this.

Last I heard, he straightened himself out, reconciled with family, and is still sitting Zazen.

Sometimes trying to help people works out.
You can not help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
And if they want to help themselves then they will do it regardless if we help or not.
Determination is a strong medicine

Of course, help would be better

Turtle Clan
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by Turtle Clan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:40 am

p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:14 am
He didn't protect her- He protected his practice and as a result she was killed- He was neglectful, yet continues to be revered-
How so? Your judgement seems harsh.
Larry wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:34 am
Good point. He wasn’t as squeaky clean as the hagiography suggests
He is not responsible for the hagiography is he?

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by Turtle Clan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:44 am

avisitor wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:44 pm
You can not help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
And if they want to help themselves then they will do it regardless if we help or not.
Determination is a strong medicine

Of course, help would be better
Some people are incapable or no longer capable of helping themselves. That is why they need help.
People who are incapable of helping others also need help.

Larry
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by Larry » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:46 am

Turtle Clan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:40 am
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:14 am
He didn't protect her- He protected his practice and as a result she was killed- He was neglectful, yet continues to be revered-
How so? Your judgement seems harsh.
Harsh maybe but surely not “strange” and “ugly”.
Turtle Clan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:40 am
Larry wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:34 am
Good point. He wasn’t as squeaky clean as the hagiography suggests
He is not responsible for the hagiography is he?
Did I suggest he was?

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jundocohen
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:40 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:36 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:15 pm
Jundo, no- He wasn't a martyr, or a good priest, to risk the well-being of his family in an effort help the monk and call it good practice- Don't cloak his grave mistake with reverence when it was neglect-
Sometimes in 20/20 hindsight our good intentions seem like mistakes. To give an example, I also had a Japanese fellow come to our Zen group, troubled background, various issues, used to drink and get angry sometimes with me and others, I had to get in the car a couple of times at night to help get him out of some trouble. (I keep the description general with no more specifics because of confidentiality issues). My wife did not care for all this.

Last I heard, he straightened himself out, reconciled with family, and is still sitting Zazen. My wife and I are still here.

Sometimes trying to help people works out.
You can't win for losing with all the critics out there. This fellow, in exchange for my finding him an almost free apartment next to our house during the Covid-19 isolation, undertook to translate my new book into Japanese. (Such a strange age, although he was right next door, I did not see him except at a distance over the back fence and via skype to work on the translation, he might as well have been 100 kilometres away). Still, we often don't lock our doors here in the Japanese countryside and, rather than kill us with an axe, he did me a solid favor, translating a chunk of my book for free. He left last week saying that I had saved him from homelessness. All I had done was find him a room with a neighbor who needed help with planting crops, and I myself received free labor.

Someone someday reading my "hagiography" (which will feature plenty of light emanating from between my brow and various healing miracles in my name :D ) might then say that I only helped him to get something for myself, and thus what I did was selfish so that all the reverence for the late reverend is misplaced. In my case, they will be correct.

Gassho, J

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by p22 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:05 pm

I offered an assessment equal to that of the lesson, a specific incidence- Not a shame and assign blame drive by of an entire life, one that is in need of defending or held above others-

He set a precedence:

A: Do not repeat

B: Seek an alternative

He made a decision, someone ended up dead as a result of his effort- Deflecting accountability doesn't move anything closer to a solution-

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by p22 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:07 pm


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fuki
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:08 pm

Turtle Clan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:44 am

Some people are incapable or no longer capable of helping themselves. That is why they need help.
People who are incapable of helping others also need help.
Yes, "ofcourse' when helping there is no notion of helping or non-helping, nor idea of a helper and someone (in particular) being helped. "we" tend to have a very narrow/outdated look on things, like there's a direct link or result, even when ppl don't seem to accept help or seem to grow, in 'reality' every action of body/speech/mind is of unlimited service, it's kind of like planting seeds, it may take years or "lifetimes" before conditions meet and something blossoms from it, and it doesn't have to help the particular person/situation we might have in mind/view. In any case the results are none of our concern, only the intentions matters. When we help one person, we are helping everyone/everything, as there only is "One Being"
(if that many to quote Joe)
meister eckhart 4.jpg
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fuki
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:16 pm

Once when the Buddha was on one of his rounds of begging, he came across a farmer who was reluctant to give him any food. Thinking that the Buddha was just another shramana, a mendicant, he said....
Image

“You don't work; all you know is how to beg for food, whereas I work very diligently.I cultivate my field and crops. If you want food, you can cultivate these fields yourself."

Image

The Buddha upon hearing this, said. "Yes, indeed you work hard to cultivate your fields. I, too, cultivate fields." The farmer asked, "What kind of fields do you cultivate?
Image

The Buddha replied, "I do not cultivate a field of soil; I cultivate the field of mind, not only my mind but the minds of all sentient beings. Through expedient means I plant seeds and cultivate the mind-ground of sentient beings. Eventually the fields will also blossom and produce crops."
Image
~Cultivating the empty field (photoshop) fun;
the story of the farmer and the Buddha quoted from "Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of Huatou" by Sheng Yen

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fuki
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:54 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:40 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:36 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:15 pm
Jundo, no- He wasn't a martyr, or a good priest, to risk the well-being of his family in an effort help the monk and call it good practice- Don't cloak his grave mistake with reverence when it was neglect-
Sometimes in 20/20 hindsight our good intentions seem like mistakes. To give an example, I also had a Japanese fellow come to our Zen group, troubled background, various issues, used to drink and get angry sometimes with me and others, I had to get in the car a couple of times at night to help get him out of some trouble. (I keep the description general with no more specifics because of confidentiality issues). My wife did not care for all this.

Last I heard, he straightened himself out, reconciled with family, and is still sitting Zazen. My wife and I are still here.

Sometimes trying to help people works out.
You can't win for losing with all the critics out there. This fellow, in exchange for my finding him an almost free apartment next to our house during the Covid-19 isolation, undertook to translate my new book into Japanese. (Such a strange age, although he was right next door, I did not see him except at a distance over the back fence and via skype to work on the translation, he might as well have been 100 kilometres away). Still, we often don't lock our doors here in the Japanese countryside and, rather than kill us with an axe, he did me a solid favor, translating a chunk of my book for free. He left last week saying that I had saved him from homelessness. All I had done was find him a room with a neighbor who needed help with planting crops, and I myself received free labor.
:namaste:
Thanks for sharing Jundo, wonderful story.
Someone someday reading my "hagiography" (which will feature plenty of light emanating from between my brow and various healing miracles in my name :D ) might then say that I only helped him to get something for myself, and thus what I did was selfish so that all the reverence for the late reverend is misplaced. In my case, they will be correct.
:lol:
When I reviewed that cucumber in my mouth, I also saw your duck taped mouth :D

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:51 pm

Turtle Clan wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:44 am
avisitor wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:44 pm
You can not help anyone who does not want to help themselves.
And if they want to help themselves then they will do it regardless if we help or not.
Determination is a strong medicine

Of course, help would be better
Some people are incapable or no longer capable of helping themselves. That is why they need help.
People who are incapable of helping others also need help.
I was talking from experiences I had with an individual who claimed she wanted to stop taking Heroine.
Got her into a rehab clinic which she left early and she turned to the streets.
Sold her body for sex to get money for drugs.

She was not incapable of helping herself. She just did not want help.
Often, she would blame her situation or her past or her family. Excuses.

If those who become incapable of helping themselves were given help
Then only those who are capable of really wanting to change will effect any change for the better.
The rest will fall back upon their sorry excuses.

Needing help and wanting help are two different things
Not all which are obvious to see

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fuki
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:02 pm

Avi, you still helped her, despite appearances.
Though I know what you mean, yes I often "cut off" people from "my life" like that
still your efforts are helpful/unmeasurable, eventhough you or even her might never be aware of it. (the particulars)
:111:

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:32 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:02 pm
Avi, you still helped her, despite appearances.
Though I know what you mean, yes I often "cut off" people from "my life" like that
still your efforts are helpful/unmeasurable, eventhough you or even her might never be aware of it. (the particulars)
:111:
The last I saw of her was when her older sister had come to take her to an upstate NY rehab center.
I was not allowed to see her or have any contact with her.
Saw her five years later, on the streets. Panhandling.
She was no longer selling her body because she had aged so much living on the street
She looked thirty years older than before.

I felt sad.

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fuki
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:38 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:32 pm
The last I saw of her was when her older sister had come to take her to an upstate NY rehab center.
I was not allowed to see her or have any contact with her.
Saw her five years later, on the streets. Panhandling.
She was no longer selling her body because she had aged so much living on the street
She looked thirty years older than before.

I felt sad.
:cry:

Me too, "within emptiness, weeping, laughing" eh?
You did good Avi, your intentions are met, and realize although you feel sadness in the event, you never know how she might have helped others through you despite not being able to help herself (or as we perceive it) :D

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jundocohen
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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by jundocohen » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:03 am

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:51 pm

I was talking from experiences I had with an individual who claimed she wanted to stop taking Heroine.
Got her into a rehab clinic which she left early and she turned to the streets.
Sold her body for sex to get money for drugs.

She was not incapable of helping herself. She just did not want help.
Often, she would blame her situation or her past or her family. Excuses.

If those who become incapable of helping themselves were given help
Then only those who are capable of really wanting to change will effect any change for the better.
The rest will fall back upon their sorry excuses.

Needing help and wanting help are two different things
Not all which are obvious to see
Mental illness is often not so simple as merely wanting to change. The fellow who took an ax to Mrs. Suzuki probably was beyond a simple matter of "will power" ... (Just look in the mirror, smile and repeat 3x: "I will not chop anyone today, I will not chop anyone today ... " )

I am no expert, but many addictions have physiological and other deep roots that are hard, if not impossible, for many individuals to root out by will power. Even for some of our great Zen Masters, like Maezumi Roshi, had to head to the rehab (Betty Ford Clinic) at one point, and the drinking eventually killed him. However, he was also a brilliant teacher. Trungpa was another, as is his son. Shimada and Joshu Sasaki who could not keep it in their pants. Daido Loori with the cigarettes that may have killed him. I need to cut down on the chocolate myself.

https://whiteplum.org/a-statement-of-th ... isconduct/

Gassho, J

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Re: (Re)examining the first precept?

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:22 am

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:03 am
Mental illness is often not so simple as merely wanting to change. The fellow who took an ax to Mrs. Suzuki probably was beyond a simple matter of "will power" ... (Just look in the mirror, smile and repeat 3x: "I will not chop anyone today, I will not chop anyone today ... " )

I am no expert, but many addictions have physiological and other deep roots that are hard, if not impossible, for many individuals to root out by will power. Even for some of our great Zen Masters, like Maezumi Roshi, had to head to the rehab (Betty Ford Clinic) at one point, and the drinking eventually killed him. However, he was also a brilliant teacher. Trungpa was another, as is his son. Shimada and Joshu Sasaki who could not keep it in their pants. Daido Loori with the cigarettes that may have killed him. I need to cut down on the chocolate myself.
Sorry, I was not talking about mental illness or having no capacity for understanding reality as commonly known to most normal people.
Yeah, that did not come out right either.

One of the hardest drugs to quit was nicotine.
Due to ease of access and societal acceptance
Heroine and Crack cocaine are also difficult to quit
But, there are rehab centers to help
No, it may be difficult but not impossible.

There are issues with those so called Zen master, who still harbor desires to act in ways which go against the eight fold path.
One, who is truly realized of one's true nature, would deepen their awakening by gradually integrating it into their daily lives.
Otherwise, what was once experienced becomes a distant faded memory which is only visited upon on days of dreary.

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