The Morning Star Simply Shines

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jundocohen
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The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:57 am

.
In a world in which we chase, need more more more, try to fix, analyze/categorize/rate, like and dislike, feel dissatisfaction, long for or regret the past, distress at today, fear for the future, rush toward or run away ...

... one sits Shikantaza with nothing more to chase, nothing more needed, all just as it is with nothing to repair. the divisions and categories dropped away, in equanimity beyond personal likes and dislikes, whole and complete in sitting itself, thoughts of past and future dropped away, no other place to go or in need of going. Zazen is good for nothing because, in sitting Zazen, nothing more is needed but sitting itself.

The morning star simply shines.

avisitor
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by avisitor » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:36 am

That is a beautiful sentiment about Shikantaza.
And for those who have spent much time practicing Shikantaza, it reflects their time just sitting

Shikantaza is difficult for me.
My mind wanders without an anchor.
Haven't been able to drop anchor.

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jundocohen
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:52 am

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:36 am
That is a beautiful sentiment about Shikantaza.
And for those who have spent much time practicing Shikantaza, it reflects their time just sitting

Shikantaza is difficult for me.
My mind wanders without an anchor.
Haven't been able to drop anchor.
Hah, we say neither drop nor do not drop anchor. Perhaps keep the anchor, but do not create your own chain.

Mind wandering is not a problem. Following your wandering mind is.

Larry
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by Larry » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:41 am

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:57 am
.
In a world in which we chase, need more more more, try to fix, analyze/categorize/rate, like and dislike, feel dissatisfaction, long for or regret the past, distress at today, fear for the future, rush toward or run away ...

... one sits Shikantaza with nothing more to chase, nothing more needed, all just as it is with nothing to repair. the divisions and categories dropped away, in equanimity beyond personal likes and dislikes, whole and complete in sitting itself, thoughts of past and future dropped away, no other place to go or in need of going. Zazen is good for nothing because, in sitting Zazen, nothing more is needed but sitting itself.

The morning star simply shines.
But do all those sitting “Shikantaza” Truly SEE the morning star? 🙂

Or, are we back to method acting and fake it till you make it? 🙂

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jundocohen
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:36 pm

Larry wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:41 am

But do all those sitting “Shikantaza” Truly SEE the morning star? 🙂

Or, are we back to method acting and fake it till you make it? 🙂
The morning star shines seen or unseen. The star is not shining "out there." Nor is it "in here." You are the star shining, yet the shining star is not you.

People get this eventually I think, if they allow themselves to do so.

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fuki
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:39 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:36 am
My mind wanders without an anchor.
Haven't been able to drop anchor.
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avisitor
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by avisitor » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:11 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:52 am
Hah, we say neither drop nor do not drop anchor. Perhaps keep the anchor, but do not create your own chain.

Mind wandering is not a problem. Following your wandering mind is.
Mind does not wander if not following.
So mind wanders means one is following.
Unless you can choose to do either or both???

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fuki
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:10 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:11 pm
Mind does not wander if not following.
Mind is always wandering, the awareness of a non-wandering mind is itself the wandering mind 🙃

Following ofcourse refers to attaching whatever arises, then it becomes a narrative, a story, a daydream like "mind does not wander if not following" :D

Ps avi I think you'd like very much ShengYen's commentary on the Song of Mind.
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Larry
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by Larry » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:21 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:10 pm
Mind is always wandering, the awareness of a non-wandering mind is itself the wandering mind 🙃
🙏

More pith :D

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fuki
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:29 pm

Googled it but have not a clue what you mean with pith, something about fruit? :lol:

Larry
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by Larry » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:04 pm

:lol:

Yes, it’s all completely bananas :lol:

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fuki
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:16 pm

:lol:

An auspicious sign that the forum is functioning perfectly according to the needs of dharma nuts, fruits, cakes and nonzense cooks! :lol:

avisitor
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by avisitor » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:01 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:10 pm
avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:11 pm
Mind does not wander if not following.
Mind is always wandering, the awareness of a non-wandering mind is itself the wandering mind 🙃

Following ofcourse refers to attaching whatever arises, then it becomes a narrative, a story, a daydream like "mind does not wander if not following" :D

Ps avi I think you'd like very much ShengYen's commentary on the Song of Mind.
It is beyond me how this mind can wander if there is no conscious attention following. Cause narrative ceases and no other thought arise without attention. But, then again, do not do Shikantaza. Like those who use Koans to focus attention, when applied to "great doubt", they have better chance for satori.

I remember Joe saying that all satori is the same. But I disagree. The depth of such is not always the same. And so, the length of time such things last is not the same. This is why there are stories of Zen masters who after their first few experiences continue to seek out those who know more and deepen their knowledge.

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jundocohen
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:24 am

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:11 pm

Unless you can choose to do either or both???
I would say that Shikantaza has a definite aspect of learning to do either or both and neither at once.

Thoughts happen, yet one is unentangled. Thoughts do not happen, yet one is unentangled. In fact, one is even "unentangled" when sometimes entangled.

How so?

One experiences the clear, boundless, unobstructed mirror or sky free of thoughts as always present without regard to whether clouds of thought and emotion drift through. Seen or unseen, the sky is always present. Seen or unseen, the moon is always shining in every dewdrop of the earth even on the darkest night or in broad daylight. One learns that the clouds are just the sky too. The mirror is always the mirror whatever appears within it, and whatever appears in the mirror is just the mirror's clear welcoming light too.

In this way, just as sky is always clear boundless unobstructed sky whether clouds or no clouds, just as the mirror is always the mirror no matter what appears, thus thoughts are always not happening whether thoughts are happening or not.

For that reason, thoughts happen, yet one is unentangled. Thoughts do not happen, yet one is unentangled. Heck, even when one is sometimes "entangled" sometimes ... one is still thoroughly unentangled (untangled in one's sometime tangledness :D ) for the sky is still present, the moon still shining, the mirror always unbroken whether there are tangles or not.

Like that. Does that get the meaning across well?

Gassho, Jundo

avisitor
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by avisitor » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:13 am

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:11 pm

Unless you can choose to do either or both???
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:24 am
I would say that Shikantaza has a definite aspect of learning to do either or both and neither at once.

Thoughts happen, yet one is unentangled. Thoughts do not happen, yet one is unentangled. In fact, one is even "unentangled" when sometimes entangled.

How so?
If Shikantaza has definite aspects of learning then how is that Zazen which is "just sitting"?
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:24 am
One experiences the clear, boundless, unobstructed mirror or sky free of thoughts as always present without regard to whether clouds of thought and emotion drift through. Seen or unseen, the sky is always present. Seen or unseen, the moon is always shining in every dewdrop of the earth even on the darkest night or in broad daylight. One learns that the clouds are just the sky too. The mirror is always the mirror whatever appears within it, and whatever appears in the mirror is just the mirror's clear welcoming light too.

In this way, just as sky is always clear boundless unobstructed sky whether clouds or no clouds, just as the mirror is always the mirror no matter what appears, thus thoughts are always not happening whether thoughts are happening or not.

For that reason, thoughts happen, yet one is unentangled. Thoughts do not happen, yet one is unentangled. Heck, even when one is sometimes "entangled" sometimes ... one is still thoroughly unentangled (untangled in one's sometime tangledness :D ) for the sky is still present, the moon still shining, the mirror always unbroken whether there are tangles or not.

Like that. Does that get the meaning across well?
Sounds a lot like day dreaming. Entangled or un-entangled??
Sitting and observing thoughts. Following and not following??
If you are not here now then where are you?

The water in the bucket shimmers like the mirror
And the sky is ever present
The water may be unbroken
But disturbed it will not show a clear view of the moon
And many say that stillness is the way to view the moon

Glad Shikantaza works for you.

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jundocohen
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:34 am

Yes, I know that it is hard for some to pierce this beautiful Koan of Shikantaza.

Just Sitting, yet not just sitting around. :hatsoff:
The water may be unbroken
But disturbed it will not show a clear view of the moon
And many say that stillness is the way to view the moon
Many do so say, and we cherish those clear, still and beautiful times. Yet, the water is just as wet, and the moon just as round, on a clear day as in a storm.

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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:36 am

Avi when Jundo says "cloud is sky, sky is cloud" it's the same point(er) as; "Allow the mind to float and sink" :D

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jundocohen
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by jundocohen » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:50 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:36 am
Avi when Jundo says "cloud is sky, sky is cloud" it's the same point(er) as; "Allow the mind to float and sink" :D
Perhaps not just so. I mean, as in the glorious Huayan way of experiencing identity, the sky --is-- cloud, cloud --is-- sky. Also, the absence of cloud is sky, and the absence of cloud is cloud.

The sky is not only clear when not obstructed. The sky is the sky when obstructed or not. In fact, the obstruction is the sky, the sky always obstruction.

Most people cannot see this, so think that the sky is only clear when clear.

Gassho, J

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fuki
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:05 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:50 pm
Most people cannot see this, so think that the sky is only clear when clear.

Gassho, J
Yes its what I meant or failed to express perhaps, hence allow "it" to float and sink, as a "practise reference/inspiration" or the realization that "mind is not-mind" i.e. no obstruction.

Reminded of Dogen's "
Enlightenment does not destroy man anymore than the moon breaks a hole in the water."

avisitor
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Re: The Morning Star Simply Shines

Post by avisitor » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:24 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:36 am
Avi when Jundo says "cloud is sky, sky is cloud" it's the same point(er) as; "Allow the mind to float and sink" :D
Got it
It is what it is even in the absence of it. :557:

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