Wonderful, No Place to Go

Moderator: fuki

avisitor
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:01 am

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by avisitor » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:53 am

I would like to thank JundoCohen for this topic.
I looked at his treeleaf sangha forum and it also has this topic.
Of course, the replies were quite different there.
And goes to show, life is better in your own neighborhood.

Thanks JundoCohen.

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by jundocohen » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:45 am

Just be where one is at, just at where one is.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by fuki » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:58 am

jundocohen wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:45 am
Just be where one is at, just at where one is.
That's what "fool" nisargadatta used to say, thanks to his pointers I understood my own errors in my "zen study" and came back to the buddhadharma/life ;)

avisitor
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:01 am

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by avisitor » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:56 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:58 am
jundocohen wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:45 am
Just be where one is at, just at where one is.
That's what "fool" nisargadatta used to say, thanks to his pointers I understood my own errors in my "zen study" and came back to the buddhadharma/life ;)
It was important to me to show JundoCohen the appreciation his contributions deserve.
Although it seems to have been a copy and paste, his intentions were to share his knowledge
And for that I am grateful.

User avatar
fuki
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:10 pm
Location: Zandvoort, the Netherlands

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by fuki » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:53 am

Thanks for sharing, appreciative too of Jundo's contributions, and yours.

User avatar
desertwoodworker
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:27 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert / USA

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am

Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:42 am
.
The idea appeared in Buddhism somewhere that the goal of Zen practice is eventually to feel peaceful, fearless, beautiful and wonderful 24/7/365.

Perhaps, when we are all perfect Buddhas, this world left behind, it is so. However, so long as we have these human bodies, I don't feel that it can always be so ... not if we are to truly live in this life. Still, that does not mean that the teachings of fearlessness, peace, beauty and wonder are not true!

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by jundocohen » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am
Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

--Joe

Yeah, that's one way, one good way. Yet, many a'road to Loch Lomond. :117:

Many a good scenic vista-less vista along the way, thanks for the postcard, beautiful ... :waving: ... to be celebrated ...

.... but we should not confuse the nice places to visit with the destinations. :109: Not everyone needs to go there, and some know the water in their own bones. The Loch travels in our own footsteps even as one sits very still on the bonnie braes.

Many roads, no place to go.

https://youtu.be/feLT7Btuqpc

Gassho, J

User avatar
desertwoodworker
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:27 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert / USA

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by desertwoodworker » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 pm

Maybe so, but our Original Teacher, Shakyamuni, invites us to awaken. Let's take him up on it (a lotta Ch'an and Zen teachers do, too, I'll note).

Later, if we want or need (organically) to slack off, why, that may only be natural, in one's old age (tho' some people don't give it any mind).

:namaste:

Your own,

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am
Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

Yeah, that's one way, one good way. Yet, many a'road to Loch Lomond. :117:

Many a good scenic vista-less vista along the way, thanks for the postcard, beautiful ... :waving: ... to be celebrated ...

.... but we should not confuse the nice places to visit with the destinations. :109: Not everyone needs to go there, and some know the water in their own bones. The Loch travels in our own footsteps even as one sits very still on the bonnie braes.

Many roads, no place to go.

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by jundocohen » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:12 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 pm
Maybe so, but our Original Teacher, Shakyamuni, invites us to awaken. Let's take him up on it (a lotta Ch'an and Zen teachers do, too, I'll note).

Later, if we want or need (organically) to slack off, why, that may only be natural, in one's old age (tho' some people don't give it any mind).

:namaste:

Your own,

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am
Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

Yeah, that's one way, one good way. Yet, many a'road to Loch Lomond. :117:

Many a good scenic vista-less vista along the way, thanks for the postcard, beautiful ... :waving: ... to be celebrated ...

.... but we should not confuse the nice places to visit with the destinations. :109: Not everyone needs to go there, and some know the water in their own bones. The Loch travels in our own footsteps even as one sits very still on the bonnie braes.

Many roads, no place to go.
Actually, do you know that the Fourth Jhana, in the very early Suttas usually treated as the highest Jhana (with the higher Five and above, more removed Jhana likely encroachments of yogic and Brahmin meditations originally rejected by the Buddha), was actually very simple before the Visuddhimagga and later commentaries and Chinese meditation traditions turned them in to something more? It is true. I will write more about this another time, but it is the difference between the so-called "Sutta Jhanas" and "Commentary Jhanas."

The Fourth Jhana is a dropping of applied and sustained thought, then a fading away of rapture, a disentangling from pleasures and pain, ceasing measures of joy and grief, aversions and attractions, replaced by the wholeness of a unified mind and equanimity. No need for extreme or particularly unusual mental states, and ordinary mind is the way to the wise ... ordinary yet anything but.

Gassho, J

STLah

Larry
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:49 am

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by Larry » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:35 am

:112:

User avatar
desertwoodworker
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:27 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert / USA

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by desertwoodworker » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:35 am

Thank you very much, Jundo-san!

As a practitioner with my teacher, the monk Ch'an Master Sheng yen, I didn't inspect or analyse samadhi states as they came. I sat with them. And at one time (and a few times later, in smaller ways), samadhi broke up and left nothing. I was free. So were all beings. Whew! Who'd a thunk.

Hail!

--Joe

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:12 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 pm
Maybe so, but our Original Teacher, Shakyamuni, invites us to awaken. Let's take him up on it (a lotta Ch'an and Zen teachers do, too, I'll note).

Later, if we want or need (organically) to slack off, why, that may only be natural, in one's old age (tho' some people don't give it any mind).

:namaste:

Your own,

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am
Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

Yeah, that's one way, one good way. Yet, many a'road to Loch Lomond. :117:

Many a good scenic vista-less vista along the way, thanks for the postcard, beautiful ... :waving: ... to be celebrated ...

.... but we should not confuse the nice places to visit with the destinations. :109: Not everyone needs to go there, and some know the water in their own bones. The Loch travels in our own footsteps even as one sits very still on the bonnie braes.

Many roads, no place to go.
Actually, do you know that the Fourth Jhana, in the very early Suttas usually treated as the highest Jhana (with the higher Five and above, more removed Jhana likely encroachments of yogic and Brahmin meditations originally rejected by the Buddha), was actually very simple before the Visuddhimagga and later commentaries and Chinese meditation traditions turned them in to something more? It is true. I will write more about this another time, but it is the difference between the so-called "Sutta Jhanas" and "Commentary Jhanas."

The Fourth Jhana is a dropping of applied and sustained thought, then a fading away of rapture, a disentangling from pleasures and pain, ceasing measures of joy and grief, aversions and attractions, replaced by the wholeness of a unified mind and equanimity. No need for extreme or particularly unusual mental states, and ordinary mind is the way to the wise ... ordinary yet anything but.

Gassho, J

STLah

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by jundocohen » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:42 am

But all beings are free and there is nothing to break up whether one thunk so or not.

I believe that you misunderstand my point: What you describe is wonderful and wondrous for you. But if you think that is enlightenment, well, it is what we call 80%. Don't confuse the "non-selfie" at the Grand Canyon with the whole vacation!

Alas, whether you we in the state you believe you were in, or not and just some form of dissociation, does not matter because it is cherished by you. Perhaps the world could not function for long if all or most people were so, but you rightly cherish that it happened to you and had some deep meaning for you (and you-less). However, 'tis only one twist on the road, not the whole highway.

Gassho, Jundo
desertwoodworker wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:35 am
Thank you very much, Jundo-san!

As a practitioner with my teacher, the monk Ch'an Master Sheng yen, I didn't inspect or analyse samadhi states as they came. I sat with them. And at one time (and a few times later, in smaller ways), samadhi broke up and left nothing. I was free. So were all beings. Whew! Who'd a thunk.

Hail!

--Joe

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:12 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 pm
Maybe so, but our Original Teacher, Shakyamuni, invites us to awaken. Let's take him up on it (a lotta Ch'an and Zen teachers do, too, I'll note).

Later, if we want or need (organically) to slack off, why, that may only be natural, in one's old age (tho' some people don't give it any mind).

:namaste:

Your own,

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am
Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

Yeah, that's one way, one good way. Yet, many a'road to Loch Lomond. :117:

Many a good scenic vista-less vista along the way, thanks for the postcard, beautiful ... :waving: ... to be celebrated ...

.... but we should not confuse the nice places to visit with the destinations. :109: Not everyone needs to go there, and some know the water in their own bones. The Loch travels in our own footsteps even as one sits very still on the bonnie braes.

Many roads, no place to go.
Actually, do you know that the Fourth Jhana, in the very early Suttas usually treated as the highest Jhana (with the higher Five and above, more removed Jhana likely encroachments of yogic and Brahmin meditations originally rejected by the Buddha), was actually very simple before the Visuddhimagga and later commentaries and Chinese meditation traditions turned them in to something more? It is true. I will write more about this another time, but it is the difference between the so-called "Sutta Jhanas" and "Commentary Jhanas."

The Fourth Jhana is a dropping of applied and sustained thought, then a fading away of rapture, a disentangling from pleasures and pain, ceasing measures of joy and grief, aversions and attractions, replaced by the wholeness of a unified mind and equanimity. No need for extreme or particularly unusual mental states, and ordinary mind is the way to the wise ... ordinary yet anything but.

Gassho, J

STLah

User avatar
desertwoodworker
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:27 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert / USA

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by desertwoodworker » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:43 pm

Roshi,

Hello, all best, I hope you're keeping well.

There's a culture of "Enlightenment" (awakening) in Tibet, or there was, and/or there will be again. There and elsewhere. Someday, some people will see (to it).

The Mind of no-mind is nothing to sneeze at.

There may be -- or become -- a culture of awakened true-Wisdom, and true-Compassion hereabouts, wherever you are, or we are.

This is my faith: It's not just for one presumed being. It's to be universalized. As was our original teacher Shakyamuni's wish, ...and his effortless (?) exertion. Else, he would not have "taught". This is serious... .

Simple,

_/|\_ ,

Yours,

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:42 am
But all beings are free and there is nothing to break up whether one thunk so or not.

I believe that you misunderstand my point: What you describe is wonderful and wondrous for you. But if you think that is enlightenment, well, it is what we call 80%. Don't confuse the "non-selfie" at the Grand Canyon with the whole vacation!

Alas, whether you we in the state you believe you were in, or not and just some form of dissociation, does not matter because it is cherished by you. Perhaps the world could not function for long if all or most people were so, but you rightly cherish that it happened to you and had some deep meaning for you (and you-less). However, 'tis only one twist on the road, not the whole highway.

Gassho, Jundo
desertwoodworker wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:35 am
Thank you very much, Jundo-san!

As a practitioner with my teacher, the monk Ch'an Master Sheng yen, I didn't inspect or analyse samadhi states as they came. I sat with them. And at one time (and a few times later, in smaller ways), samadhi broke up and left nothing. I was free. So were all beings. Whew! Who'd a thunk.

Hail!

--Joe

jundocohen wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:12 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:37 pm
Maybe so, but our Original Teacher, Shakyamuni, invites us to awaken. Let's take him up on it (a lotta Ch'an and Zen teachers do, too, I'll note).

Later, if we want or need (organically) to slack off, why, that may only be natural, in one's old age (tho' some people don't give it any mind).

:namaste:

Your own,

--Joe
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:43 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:35 am
Yes, awaken at least once, and live the life of no-mind and within emptiness for some months. This will confirm that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors have not been lying to us. If it again fades -- this luminous, empty, and intuitive awakened Physical state of no mind -- it's because our continuing practice could not yet come to support all the needs of the awakened state. We must continue to learn!! But that is then our opportunity to develop skilful means for helping others, so that, even if we awaken again (as happens!), we can have familiar ways of helping others in the bag, ready to exercise and apply. Not that we need this!: true Wisdom and true Compassion, in the awakened state, know just what to do, just when, and just how much, for a perfect and complete result, without residue, and without fail. Hail!

Yeah, that's one way, one good way. Yet, many a'road to Loch Lomond. :117:

Many a good scenic vista-less vista along the way, thanks for the postcard, beautiful ... :waving: ... to be celebrated ...

.... but we should not confuse the nice places to visit with the destinations. :109: Not everyone needs to go there, and some know the water in their own bones. The Loch travels in our own footsteps even as one sits very still on the bonnie braes.

Many roads, no place to go.
Actually, do you know that the Fourth Jhana, in the very early Suttas usually treated as the highest Jhana (with the higher Five and above, more removed Jhana likely encroachments of yogic and Brahmin meditations originally rejected by the Buddha), was actually very simple before the Visuddhimagga and later commentaries and Chinese meditation traditions turned them in to something more? It is true. I will write more about this another time, but it is the difference between the so-called "Sutta Jhanas" and "Commentary Jhanas."

The Fourth Jhana is a dropping of applied and sustained thought, then a fading away of rapture, a disentangling from pleasures and pain, ceasing measures of joy and grief, aversions and attractions, replaced by the wholeness of a unified mind and equanimity. No need for extreme or particularly unusual mental states, and ordinary mind is the way to the wise ... ordinary yet anything but.

Gassho, J

STLah

User avatar
jundocohen
Posts: 181
Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by jundocohen » Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:14 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:43 pm
Roshi,

Hello, all best, I hope you're keeping well.

There's a culture of "Enlightenment" (awakening) in Tibet, or there was, and/or there will be again. There and elsewhere. Someday, some people will see (to it).

The Mind of no-mind is nothing to sneeze at.

There may be -- or become -- a culture of awakened true-Wisdom, and true-Compassion hereabouts, wherever you are, or we are.

This is my faith: It's not just for one presumed being. It's to be universalized. As was our original teacher Shakyamuni's wish, ...and his effortless (?) exertion. Else, he would not have "taught". This is serious... .

Simple,
We fully agree, Joe. There are many ways to get to (realize) where/what one already "is". If on the mountain, walking the mountain, looking for the mountain (in fact, already the mountain walking the mountain searching for the mountain ... all just mountain mountaining mountain), one can find the mountain either by resting very very incredibly silently still ... or burying oneself in the mountain ... or by beating one's head on some of the rocks of the mountain ... or by blowing a tunnel into the mountain. All mountain.

Then, having realized, there are many ways to realize (make it real in life, i.e. live) so in our ways of living in life.

Gassho, J

STLah

User avatar
desertwoodworker
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:27 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert / USA

Re: Wonderful, No Place to Go

Post by desertwoodworker » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:06 am

Yes, Jundo, yes.

My family name is "Mountain-People", or "Mountain-Men, or, "Mountain-People/Person". Since awakening under Master Sheng Yen, it's ever more clear to me how to use and appreciate this fact.

Thank-ye!, Roshi,

--Joe

jundocohen wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:14 am
desertwoodworker wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:43 pm
Roshi,

Hello, all best, I hope you're keeping well.

There's a culture of "Enlightenment" (awakening) in Tibet, or there was, and/or there will be again. There and elsewhere. Someday, some people will see (to it).

The Mind of no-mind is nothing to sneeze at.

There may be -- or become -- a culture of awakened true-Wisdom, and true-Compassion hereabouts, wherever you are, or we are.

This is my faith: It's not just for one presumed being. It's to be universalized. As was our original teacher Shakyamuni's wish, ...and his effortless (?) exertion. Else, he would not have "taught". This is serious... .

Simple,
We fully agree, Joe. There are many ways to get to (realize) where/what one already "is". If on the mountain, walking the mountain, looking for the mountain (in fact, already the mountain walking the mountain searching for the mountain ... all just mountain mountaining mountain), one can find the mountain either by resting very very incredibly silently still ... or burying oneself in the mountain ... or by beating one's head on some of the rocks of the mountain ... or by blowing a tunnel into the mountain. All mountain.

Then, having realized, there are many ways to realize (make it real in life, i.e. live) so in our ways of living in life.

Gassho, J

STLah

Post Reply