'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:45 pm

desertwoodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:43 pm

Jundo Roshi's "beyond" that. ;)
Oh shit you said it, shame on me too! :lol:

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:46 pm

desertwoodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:26 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:54 pm
The only shame is considering oneself to be anything in particular. :105:
Now, now; we'll use words as we need to, and want. And smilies! :lol:

(there may also be other shames than the one you mention, too, by the way, Marcel).

--Joe
Yes but they all flow out from that root-error :D

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by desertwoodworker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:46 pm

Fuki, you are a good moderator.

And it that's "Teresa" who we knew here previously, I send best greetings and wishes for keeping safe and healthy.

--Joe

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by desertwoodworker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:48 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:46 pm
Yes but they all flow out from that root-error :D
"Hugh" got it! Marcel did/does :D , too.

In my opinion! :)

--Joe

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by desertwoodworker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:50 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:45 pm
desertwoodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:43 pm

Jundo Roshi's "beyond" that. ;)
Oh shit you said it, shame on me too! :lol:
Now, now, I'll be stingy and take ALL the shame and blame. See if I'll share with YOU!, Mister!

:namaste:

--Joe

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by desertwoodworker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:11 pm
Here's some shaming cream :lol:
Marcel,
You must be FROM Yuma! :hatsoff: --Joe

(whew, "it's like a DESERT out there" today; should reach 109 F again [43 C?] )

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:41 pm

I didn't address Jundo, 😊 I noticed a speck! :109:

And I already explained that the shamer is the person that questions their worth-

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by desertwoodworker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:44 pm

Be that as dismay... .

Still too much OT meta-. Bring unsubstantive comments and complaints to the moderator, is the way it works, we're told.

--Joe

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by p22 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:57 pm

I've no complaints or anything to report- I noticed a speck- And said so- I imagine a mountain could be made out of it .. 😊

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:34 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:47 pm
Hi, Jundo. I had no intention of evading any questions, and did not see you pose any. You seemed to be making assumptions that thinking was simply necessary, even despite what I reported to the contrary. This is and was effrontery to me, but I racked it up to a lapse in your reading comprehension and retention, as I mentioned.

It seems you're still assuming what you assumed about thinking as being necessary in the awakened state, and thinking's being present. It is not, and was not.

The miracle of the marvelous mind of no-mind is just that. Miraculously-functioning. One must just experience it, and then one can if one wishes, as you say, "tell ... in some detail how you were able to perform those tasks without thought, and where the seemingly necessary mental work involved happened if not thought?"

I leave the exercise to the Professor. :556:

Your moving-mind needs no more silage to chew on.

--Joe
I will trust and honor your interpretation of events because they are your events, and I cannot doubt your personal experience of them. If you say so, then it was so, and nobody can challenge what they mean to you.

Please also honor my interpretation that, just perhaps, you are misinterpreting the situation. You may have thought that you were having "no thoughts," and that your mind had "stopped," but part of your mind was obviously having thoughts sufficient to allow a fairly normal day-to-day life.

Again I ask, can you describe to me your experience of, for example, doing a crossword puzzle or planning a scientific experiment without thought? How did that work? Was it, for example, as if your hand just moved on its own by "automatic writing"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing

I believe that I have experienced phenomena much like this, and I believe that ... perhaps ... you may be misinterpreting it. It is possible that, for example, you were having thoughts on some level, but for whatever reason, were overlooking them and were not consciously aware. Certain kinds of trauma, sleep deptivation, hypnosis and ... yes ... intense meditation can also produce such a mental state in which, like "twilight sleep," one is actually awake but simply not registering that fact consciously. My guess (and that is all it is) is that you were perhaps in some form of hypnagogic or dissociative state which you are interpreting a certain way. That does not mean that it was not a precious and illuminating experience, but only that it may not be fully what you believe it to be. There is actually quite a bit of research on this.
... Many times, people's minds seem to go “somewhere else”—attention becomes disconnected from perception, and people's minds wander to times and places removed from the current environment (e.g., Schooler et al., 2004). At other times, however, people's minds may seem to go nowhere at all—they simply disappear. This mental state—mind-blanking—may represent an extreme decoupling of perception and attention, one in which attention fails to bring any stimuli into conscious awareness. In the present research, we outline the properties of mind-blanking, differentiating this mental state from other mental states in terms of phenomenological experience, behavioral outcomes, and underlying cognitive processes. Seven experiments suggest that when the mind seems to disappear, there are times when we have simply failed to monitor its whereabouts—and there are times when it is actually gone.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3784796/
Perhaps, in the Buddhist context, you came to interpret this "blank mind" in a positive sense.

However, your mind, your thoughts, so you are entitled to interpret the event any way that you wish, and that must be respected. Please respect my doubt about all aspects of your description as well.

Gassho, Jundo

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm

I thought I saw through my eyelids on more than one occasion-

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by avisitor » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:25 pm

IMHO, do not believe it is helpful to speak about the awakened state
As others who read these words will interpret them without full knowledge or understanding
Thus cause them to emulate that which is or is not the awakened state.
Causing great harm to those who follow such things

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:56 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:25 pm
IMHO, do not believe it is helpful to speak about the awakened state
As others who read these words will interpret them without full knowledge or understanding
Thus cause them to emulate that which is or is not the awakened state.
Causing great harm to those who follow such things
Possible, but also possible for ppl when not reading about ppl's experience to become complacent etc
furthermore any description of whatever 'state' is ofcourse words and letters, plus dependent on a vehicle (a body) so in that sense eventhough I can describe tomato soup to you and you due to also having tasted tomato soup, think I know what I mean, still our taste would not precisely be the same, and you realize the description of my taste is not an actual description of tomato soup. Reading about experiences can be inspirational or trigger an internal reaction, for instance after reading Joe's words I was inspired spontaneously to sit for 4 hours last night, it's not a decision I made, it just shows what being around ppl with actual experience can do. And lastly, any type of interpretation is a misinterpretation, regarding awakening or tomato soup, and I tend to think "seasoned" practisioners realize that and do not add superfluous ingredients to the soup based on words and letters, so there's no danger of emulation, and even if that happens, that will also be a good lesson, for no imitation can last long (however foolish or self-deceiving) for it is false.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:41 pm

In any event, what Joe describes as the "awakened state" does not seem to be so in our little corner of Zen. We find awakening right in the heart of delusion, that there is no need to be "no thoughts" without thoughts. Better to think non thinking, as Dogen said. So long as one is alive, in human form, be alive in human form ... including with that brain between your ears. It is possible to be liberated in this body and life. We find thoughts no thoughts which are sometimes thoughts and sometimes no thoughts and, to the wise, thoughts which are non thought all along.

We Buddhist folks often overly value these unusual states. It was Master Dogen's point that they are all valuable, instructive ... but just a nice placeless place to visit, would not and could not live there. For the Zen fellow, that is only 80%, never enlightenment. Most of the great Zen Masters of the past that I know never spoke of "no thinking" or "stopping" the mind, but only being beyond thinking. Only a corpse is truly beyond human thinking. Period.

I know that what Joe describes sounds amazing, and it was. I believe I have tasted as much in retreat settings, and found it amusing. I have my doubts that it was completely what he thinks it was, as pleasant as it was. My doubts do not matter.

Gassho, J

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:16 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:41 pm
Only a corpse is truly beyond human thinking. Period.
Right but that what makes you think is human is not human, I'm not sure it's a good idea to read Dogen btw with a human filter, translating the words into a mode of thinking of a human being, hence I'm not a fan of Dogen study groups, or any study group for that matter, for the reasons you mention called "human thinking" :P

ps the corpse thingy reminds me of a story of one Sri Niz's students...

1. Oxygen & Consciousness

Six months before his Samadhi, Nisargadatta Maharaj was experiencing severe breathing problems due to his throat cancer. His suffering made me feel very sad. One day, I suggested to Maharaj that we can get an oxygen cylinder, which would help relive his breathing problems.

Maharaj immediately exploded in anger- “This consciousness will stay as long it has to stay & go when it has to go. You know that I don’t want to prolong this life even for one second. After hearing all my talks I am surprised you are saying this.”

He went on and on for some time, while I just stood there. To be honest I was upset and had tears in my eyes. When I went back the next day Maharaj exclaimed “Oh you have come again! I thought after my angry outburst yesterday, you will never come back”. I told him humbly “Maharaj, it doesn’t matter what you say and how angry you get. I will always come back to you”. Maharaj nodded and smiled at me.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:16 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:41 pm
Only a corpse is truly beyond human thinking. Period.
Right but that what makes you think is human is not human, I'm not sure it's a good idea to read Dogen btw with a human filter, translating the words into a mode of thinking of a human being, hence I'm not a fan of Dogen study groups, or any study group for that matter, for the reasons you mention called "human thinking" :P

ps the corpse thingy reminds me of a story of one Sri Niz's students...

1. Oxygen & Consciousness

Six months before his Samadhi, Nisargadatta Maharaj was experiencing severe breathing problems due to his throat cancer. His suffering made me feel very sad. One day, I suggested to Maharaj that we can get an oxygen cylinder, which would help relive his breathing problems.

Maharaj immediately exploded in anger- “This consciousness will stay as long it has to stay & go when it has to go. You know that I don’t want to prolong this life even for one second. After hearing all my talks I am surprised you are saying this.”

He went on and on for some time, while I just stood there. To be honest I was upset and had tears in my eyes. When I went back the next day Maharaj exclaimed “Oh you have come again! I thought after my angry outburst yesterday, you will never come back”. I told him humbly “Maharaj, it doesn’t matter what you say and how angry you get. I will always come back to you”. Maharaj nodded and smiled at me.
It is simply a different perspective on practice. Nisargadatta was just another fool who put an interpretation on life and was guessing like all of us. Good chance that he just smoked too many of those strong Indian cigarettes, got throat cancer and died. One cannot breathe without lungs ... even if somebody claims that they experienced "no breathing." One cannot walk without feet ... even if someone claims that they dreamed of floating. One cannot live without a beating heart ... even if someone claims that they can stop the circulation at will. Likewise for a human brain ... it is simply impossible to function as a human being without thoughts, whether or not one is aware of them.

That said, the wise know that there is no birth or death, no cancer or other sickness, no in or out for the air is everywhere, and no place to go. We can travel from here to the ends of space because there is no distance and separation.

There may be some "cosmic consciousness," but it cannot live in human form without heart, lungs, feet and thinking brain. Period.

Don't be so foolish as to confuse the two. There is no death, yet Nisargadatta is dead.

-- CORRECTION: It could live without feet, perhaps with a wheelchair.
Last edited by jundocohen on Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:37 pm

Ouch, why keep discrediting yourself like this?
Joe, Nisargadatta...who next is a fool in your human eyes and thinking?

Bear with me, can you function without human vision? Sure you can ask a "blind" man. So too can you function without human thought. Your eyes come and go, just like a fox's or an elephant's eyes come and go, and indeed ask a corpse about the weather, but the nature of perception does not come and go, so ofcourse there's no such thing as birth and death, as birth is always no-birth. But you seem to think that having human eyes and a human brain means you can't function without human seeing or human thinking, sorry to inform you but that is just a thought-object. But I won't call you a fool for it, just particular human.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:51 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:37 pm
Ouch, why keep discrediting yourself like this?
Joe, Nisargadatta...who next is a fool in your human eyes and thinking?

Bear with me, can you function without human vision? Sure you can ask a "blind" man. So too can you function without human thought. Your eyes come and go, just like a fox's or an elephant's eyes come and go, and indeed ask a corpse about the weather, but the nature of perception does not come and go, so ofcourse there's no such thing as birth and death, as birth is always no-birth. But you seem to think that having human eyes and a human brain means you can't function without human seeing or human thinking, sorry to inform you but that is just a thought-object. But I won't call you a fool for it, just particular human.
No. I can function without eyes, for I still have a heart, lungs, ears and skin etc. I can function without eyes and ears, for I still have heart, lungs and skin, etc. I can function without some skin. But keep chipping away, and I cannot function.

There is a "what" beyond birth and death, thoughts of this and that. However, it cannot do a crossword puzzle or write a scientific report without us, without a brain. Don't confuse the dream with the dreamer. Joe has yet to explain how he could do ordinary tasks without thoughts ... because he cannot explain that, because he could not. If a fellow comes to here and claims to have stopped his heart for weeks or months, but kept living, my reaction would be exactly the same. If a fellow claimed that he had not breathed in months, my reaction would be the same. (It does not matter if I also sense that there is an aspect to the life of the universe that is beyond need for blood and breath ... it cannot function in a human life while experiencing weeks of coronary arrest!) One can have a human brain that does not see or think ... but the result is no more or less than what we call a vegetative state.

One can be convinced that one's heartbeat or breathing or thoughts have stopped for weeks or months, and there are folks who convince themselves that it is so ... but it cannot be so.

As a side note, here's a guy who should have been discounted as a charlatan when he put this crap on the internet. Has he ever replicated this magic trick under controlled conditions? Is it anything more than turning off the signal to the machine?

https://youtu.be/LFFMtq5g8N4

PS - In the above video, I am very suspicious of where he keeps his hands which seem always partly hidden, e.g., when for some unexplained reason, he keeps one of his hands partly hidden under his head in contact with the wire leads from his head piece. Why touch the wires? Coincidence?

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:57 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:51 pm
If a fellow comes to here and claims to have stopped his heart for weeks or months, but kept living, my reaction would be exactly the same.
How is that relevant? That there is no thinking activity does not kill the instrument, you can't choke the brain to death because there is no thinking lol I won't have to tell you that, especially a zen teacher. As mentioned before when there's consciousness there's the potential for thought activity, just as long there is a body there's the potential to experience time-space, but it's not mandatory, (to have flow/movement) you make it sound like it requires a person or inhabitant like a Jundo to decide on whether anything is possible or not possible.

ps the video is not interesting for me, "brain science" is not my cup of tea, charlatans or not.

As mentioned before I don't care whatever (one thinks) is needed or not needed to perform tasks like you mention, but to say something is not possible or requires proof, is not so much my interest. I say it's possible, to say there are no thoughts is the very explanation, dont ask for scientific proof please, I know what terrible experiments happen in labs in the name of "science".

You seem to describe/understand things only from the mental state called "being awake" or being conscious of something in particular. While what Joe refers to is being Awake beyond the mental states of waking, dreaming and sleeping which simultaniously transcends but includes all 'states', but not seen as seperate, like most ppl's experience is like, i.e. I'm awake so not sleeping, that kind of awakeness is merely a concept, an outflow of mind. So ofcourse eyes, ears, nose etc function and perform tasks while being Awake + awake without any movement or flow of mental states or concepts.

It's not rocket science

sorry for the late reply, while typing this had mom on the phone too :D

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:13 pm

I hereby declare that I have been living these past 6 months without peeing.

Since no proof is required, allow me to so declare. I have no memory of urinating, so it must be true. Pee is just an idea of the deluded mind so, an "outflow," so beyond delusion there is no need to pee. This is why there are few stories of the enlightened peeing. It is the "Great No Tinkle" that the old masters proclaim. If the Buddha did pee, he did so merely as a mirage to teach us. Although science tells us that a urinary tract is necessary to human life, let us doubt science.

Joe refuses to explain how, without peeing, it nonetheless appears that he wet the bed.

In the grand Ocean of Consciousness, all streams of pee return to the source, to where does the source return?

Not peeing does not eliminate the instruments of bladder and kidneys, thus one can live with kidneys and bladder even without peeing. You cannot choke a kidney to death because there is no peeing. There is pee consciousness which has potential for peeing, but need not pee. To have "flow" is not mandatory. I can decide whether I want to live without peeing, and whether there is a Jundo who needs to pee or not.

While some of us merely teach pee-no-peeing (that, although we must pee as people, yet there are also no people to pee, and no "place to go" ... there are no rest stops on the universal highway) ... some literally proclaim that they live as a human being who does not need to urinate. Here is a Koan: How does one pee without a pee hole? Although we can pee without a pee hole, yet Dogen left instructions on proper toilet behavior.

Buddha Bladder is ultimately Emptiness, No Piss is Bliss!

The old master rises at midnight ... and at 3am and 5am ... because he is old.

Not No.1, yet Not No. 2.

It makes sense.

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundocohen on Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

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