'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

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avisitor
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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by avisitor » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:39 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 pm
It is simply a different perspective on practice. Nisargadatta was just another fool who put an interpretation on life and was guessing like all of us. Good chance that he just smoked too many of those strong Indian cigarettes, got throat cancer and died. One cannot breathe without lungs ... even if somebody claims that they experienced "no breathing." One cannot walk without feet ... even if someone claims that they dreamed of floating. One cannot live without a beating heart ... even if someone claims that they can stop the circulation at will. Likewise for a human brain ... it is simply impossible to function as a human being without thoughts, whether or not one is aware of them.
So stories of Bodhidharma crossing the river on a straw reed was fake?
And, being buried was seen traveling east, only to find in his casket only one sandal?
Buddhism has always had the supernatural surrounding it. Sort of Mysticism.
And the story of Buddha evading a person who wanted to do him harm is also fake?

I believe in those things.
Because the impossible is possible.
Just look at Quantum Physics.
Quantum entanglement, or even the simple two slit experiment
The world isn't as simple as one would believe
After all didn't someone say that life is an illusion??
Or is it all just a delusion??

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:44 pm

:lol:

Jundo, is there in your thinking room for the slightest possibilty you might have not experienced what Joe is talking about? So therefore all attempts of any reference point you have thinking/object-measure-sciencing what it is or not is do not apply? I don't see what Dogen or your function as a zen teacher have to do with this btw, but it's kind of a discredit to call ppl a fool especially since no one had anything to say in opposition of Dogen, including dead men, shame on you! :lol:

And I'm only half joking

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:27 am

Just to be clear, I do not call Joe ... whom I respect very much ... a "fool" in any way. Quite the opposite, I honor and respect him very much. I believe in his experience, that he believes in it, that it was valuable to him, that he learned much from it, that other people experience such things (perhaps I had a taste of it, as I mention). In fact, it sounds like a rich, rewarding, mind and life altering, treasure of an experience.

But, no, I do not see any way that human beings can function in the world in any complex way (doing crossword puzzles, having intricate conversations with others, writing science papers) without thoughts. It is the same as I believe that a human being cannot live for more than a few minutes without a heart beat and breathing. I believe that there are case histories of people believing that they are without thoughts ... and really really feeling so ... just as there are people who feel convinced that their heart has stopped or they are not breathing for weeks at a time. (There are actual cases. Joe's report seems to indicate something very positive, very life changing for him, and that is to be celebrated, but there are negative versions too. Joe's very positive experience seems the very opposite of this: https://www.healthline.com/health/cotar ... n#symptoms )

Do I think that Joe was without thoughts yet working at his job, talking with his family, reading the newspaper? No.

Has Joe explained any mechanism by which he engaged in such activities or their equivalents without thoughts? No.

Do I think that Joe thinks so and actually experienced feeling so? Yes.

Could Joe be right and I am wrong? Yes. (I never say "absolutely never" about anything.)

Could I be right and Joe misinterprets his experience? Yes. (Please grace me by allowing that possibility too.)

Does my opinion change anything that Joe needs to believe or cherish in his experience? No.

Is there any reason that I should not be allowed my opinion? No.

Any reason that Joe should not be allowed his interpretation either? No.

Is the experience ultimately Joe's and nobody else's business? Yes.

Gassho, J

PS Avistor ...
I believe in those things.
Because the impossible is possible.
Well, yes, sometimes what is believed to be impossible turns out to be possible. But often, the impossible is just impossible. Somebody believing that they are living without a pumping heart, or that they can levitate, or that they saw the Loch Ness monster does not mean that that is what is actually occurring even if the people who testify so truly believe that is what happened and it is their experience and interpretation. (Although I never say "never," I think it highly unlikely without some evidence or an explanation of the mechanism by which such claims could be possible). Until it is shown how one can engage in complex human activities without complex human thoughts, I will remain skeptical. Quantum entanglement does little to change my own thoughts on the matter.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:49 am

If one doesn't experience some thing someone else has then is it only a delusion or mirage?
And does two people experience the same thing make it real?
I find keeping an open mind and open heart does wonders for my health
Does that mean someone else will have the same experiences? No, of course not.
But it also doesn't mean someone else won't.

A priest, a rabbi and a Buddhist monk are arguing about who's faith is the real one
They decide whoever jumps off a ten story building and survives by calling out their faith's name has the real one
And head to the top of a ten story building. The three men look down and ask who goes first.
I won't finish this because faith is a personal thing and would not care to discourage or encourage anyone's faith.
Yeah, I forgot the punch line.

Note: Not all things are possible for everyone.
But, did Jesus walk on water?
Did he bring a man back from the dead?
Did he heal people?
Did he feed a thousand people with just one fish?
Could it have been anyone to do those things?

Sometimes faith can do miracles???
Last edited by avisitor on Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:52 am

Jundo I have entire conversations with ppl without any thinking involved, just because it is not required (apparently lol) I dont know if that qualifies as complex activity nor in that "state" do I consider it to be anything in particular, not even an experience, for whatever narrative is what a "mind" is, and any concept of, as you say it "a mind was (must be) there" is ofcourse the very mind itself, which is a product of mind/imagination. So ofcourse then looking for proof "there" is a fruitless endeavour. Or a samsaric convulsion perhaps. :D

anyways much ado about nothing...I thought Joe's words were inspiring but apparently objective proof is required :P

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:57 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:52 am
anyways much ado about nothing...I thought Joe's words were inspiring but apparently objective proof is required :P
If one tastes a tomato and say it taste like this or that then does he need proof?
Then if someone else tastes a tomato then what one said before is real or not?
You know water is wet but if you have no proof?
If some else experiences the water then no proof is needed?

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:03 am

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:49 am
But, did Jesus walk on water?
Did he bring a man back from the dead?
Did he heal people?
Did he feed a thousand people with just one fish?
Probably not, even if he thought he did and even if someone wrote a story in which he did. Even if someone thought they saw him do it (Like Ken Wilber, were they keeping an eye on his hands?) :-)

That said, it is possible to walk on water to some degree.

https://youtu.be/YrncG8NvZJI

That said, it is possible to dream that one was walking on water, and really believe it. It can have great personal meaning.

https://youtu.be/A4rktENx3JY

That said, there is also this ...

https://youtu.be/WYRNBZOKp_M

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:38 am

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:57 am


If one tastes a tomato and say it taste like this or that then does he need proof?
Then if someone else tastes a tomato then what one said before is real or not?
You know water is wet but if you have no proof?
If some else experiences the water then no proof is needed?
The wetness of water is a first hand experience, one cannot know the water is wet without proof, for you are that very proof, saying the water is wet and I have no proof is no real knowledge, but hearsay.

Just fed the cats, did dishes, made diner now sitting in the oven, and sitting behind a pc...where is there any need of thinking or proof of no-thinking necessary? All ask for proof is already a mistake, like asking whether water is wet or not.

Someone describes swimming and someone else insists it cannot be possible to be wet, show me proof of wetness or dryness, it's all play acting, even when showing a picture of swimming is no proof, it's only a mental representation, so I'm done with this game of hearsay. Talking with ppl should be functional/inspirational, or just fun entertainment, this kind of entertainments about proofs and hearsays is useless. Let's eat.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:14 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:52 am
Jundo I have entire conversations with ppl without any thinking involved, just because it is not required (apparently lol) ....
I believe that we are getting close here. You certainly were having thoughts to have a conversation, but perhaps you were just not aware and focused on them at the time, or they were happening on a different "channel" or subliminally while your conscious attention was off somewhere else, or you simply forgot.

However, no thoughts = no conversation.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by Turtle Clan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:20 am

A back to basics question here: what does no thinking have to do with awakening?

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:50 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:14 am
I believe that we are getting close here. You certainly were having thoughts to have a conversation, but perhaps you were just not aware and focused on them at the time, or they were happening on a different "channel" or subliminally while your conscious attention was off somewhere else, or you simply forgot.
Could be and sometimes it is like you say but why should that matter? For instance I've experienced tooth pain for months this year, sometimes weeks in a row 24/7, sometimes the toothpain was gone, for "reasons" you mention but also for just not giving attention to consciousness as a whole instead of redirecting or shifting attention on another "part" Or sometimes just sleeping.

Even how, will you then in the presence or absence of the sensation of pain, then somehow tell me or proof to me/yourself I was having pain by some sort of objective measurement and you proofing there was pain eventhough I had no sensation of it? what does that proof for you? It's just a body in your focus of perception you are then measuring trying to convince that body that is ME having pain or thoughts? Blasphemy and bad parenting! :lol:
However, no thoughts = no conversation.
Give me a call in the morning telling my I had a toothache even though there was no sensation of pain. Or remind me there are always thoughts when speaking, or sounds when hearing, or objects when seeing, I will tell you it's your phantom mind telling you all that. :P

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:07 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:50 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:14 am
I believe that we are getting close here. You certainly were having thoughts to have a conversation, but perhaps you were just not aware and focused on them at the time, or they were happening on a different "channel" or subliminally while your conscious attention was off somewhere else, or you simply forgot.
Could be and sometimes it is like you say but why should that matter? For instance I've experienced tooth pain for months this year, sometimes weeks in a row 24/7, sometimes the toothpain was gone, for "reasons" you mention but also for just not giving attention to consciousness as a whole instead of redirecting or shifting attention on another "part" Or sometimes just sleeping.

Even how, will you then in the presence or absence of the sensation of pain, then somehow tell me or proof to me/yourself I was having pain by some sort of objective measurement and you proofing there was pain eventhough I had no sensation of it? what does that proof for you? It's just a body in your focus of perception you are then measuring trying to convince that body that is ME having pain or thoughts? Blasphemy and bad parenting! :lol:
However, no thoughts = no conversation.
Give me a call in the morning telling my I had a toothache even though there was no sensation of pain. Or remind me there are always thoughts when speaking, or sounds when hearing, or objects when seeing, I will tell you it's your phantom mind telling you all that. :P
Actually, you felt pain when you felt it, and you did not feel pain when you did not. (Although, in the latter case, there is a good chance that your brain was still registering pain at some level).

Your dentist may have been so experienced and well skilled that he went through many of the actions of your root canal by body memory alone, no need to think about it. He might have been thinking about his mistress, or the football season, the whole time. Maybe he was even experiencing a kind of "no thought" in the ritual and repetitive gestures that many of us feel in a structured Zen retreat, in dancing at a rave, in driving a car, in sex.

But if Joe says that it went on for weeks and months, through all life's activities, I have my strong doubts. The surgery or retreat ends, the drive reaches its destination, the dance is over, the sex comes to a halt. Soon, the dentist must plan dinner with his mistress, the office sales presentation interrupts the dance, the sex is over and the crossword beckons. The mind cannot "stop" for months and months in a functioning human being who is not living in a ashram cave.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:48 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:07 am

(Although, in the latter case, there is a good chance that your brain was still registering pain at some level).
Who cares about that?
But if Joe says that it went on for weeks and months, through all life's activities, I have my strong doubts. The surgery or retreat ends, the drive reaches its destination, the dance is over, the sex comes to a halt. Soon, the dentist must plan dinner with his mistress, the office sales presentation interrupts the dance, the sex is over and the crossword beckons. The mind cannot "stop" for months and months in a functioning human being who is not living in a ashram cave.
If Joe says it is so I do not doubt him, I dont think it lasted longer then a few days in my case(s), plus my daily routine is mostly quite simple in tasks nor do I plan or anticipate, unless it's very important and necessary. I can't speak for Joe ofcourse but why doubt him?
and when refering to the "stopping" of mind it refers to the non-arising of the deluded mind or the self-referential reactive mind, instead of responding to whatever's needed or simply happens naturally like the living dead, which is marvelous and a great joy, and theres no false self to attach or crave anything. I never plan diner or anything like that, eyes and hands do the work of groceries and cooking, no planning or thinking necessary perhaps you life a more "complex" life. I dont know about Joe's activities for weeks or months, ofcourse thoughts arise due to conditions, so when theres a lot of planning or some busy "social/work" live there's more thinking activity. And again thoughts or not, who cares I never give it a second thought, unless I have a conversation with myself :lol:

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:07 am

Just to be clear, I do not doubt Joe either, and it is not my place to doubt Joe. I honor and respect Joe very much, for what that is worth. I am sure that he is sincere and describes things 100% as they appeared to him.

Whether the event physically could be completely as described from a functional point of view ("no thought" "mind stopped"), and whether that constitutes "awakening," I do raise some personal doubts. That is all.

In any case, the event is for Joe to cherish and interpret as he will. If it is precious to Joe then it is precious. If it is a life changing time for Joe then it changed Joe's life. I did not raise the topic, but I am happy to put it down.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by Crystal » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:12 pm

.
jundocohen wrote:In any case, the event is for Joe to cherish and interpret as he will.
Yes, well said Jundo.

Just as an aside, there seem to be quite a lot of people claiming on the internet to be "enlightened", "awakened" or something similar, They can sometimes be found on YouTube and at other times at the website "Dharma Overground" owned by someone called Daniel Ingram - who himself claims:
I am an arahat, having attained that in April, 2003.
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma ... iel+Ingram

.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:45 pm

Turtle Clan wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:20 am
A back to basics question here: what does no thinking have to do with awakening?
It is not so much as no thinking as no mind.
When just sitting, we practice focus and relaxing the mind.
If we can drop this mind then we can experience our real self.
Dropping this mind means no mind.
One can not drop this mind using this mind.
So methods used ... koans, one of the quickest ways
One pointed concentration
Watching breath
Shikantaza
Each method has the ability to bring us close
The rest is individual effort. Strong faith.

Disclaimer: Find a teacher and sangha. I personally know nothing.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:24 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:45 pm

It is not so much as no thinking as no mind.
When just sitting, we practice focus and relaxing the mind.
If we can drop this mind then we can experience our real self.
Dropping this mind means no mind.
One can not drop this mind using this mind.
So methods used ... koans, one of the quickest ways
One pointed concentration
Watching breath
Shikantaza
Each method has the ability to bring us close
The rest is individual effort. Strong faith.
I feel that this is exactly right and well spoken. Our practice is to drop the "bodymind" as we say. No mind means dropping the mind of divisions, names and categories, now and then, in and out, likes and dislikes and all the rest.

I feel that what we are discussing in this thread is just what "no mind" actually means while one is still going about one's business out in the world where, seemingly, the names and categories, sense of time, choices based on likes and dislikes are still required to function (as far as I would assume). So, I am a "no mind" fellow on the cushion (or perhaps while in a structured retreat, dancing, driving etc.), but a mind-no-mind/thinking-non-thinking fellow in more complex elements of daily life. I cannot see how someone could possibly function in anything but rote behavior without thoughts and a mind.

But, yes, Avisitor, practice including Shikantaza is about dropping mind.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by fuki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:38 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:24 pm
I feel that what we are discussing in this thread is just what "no mind" actually means while one is still going about one's business out in the world where,
Simply when there's no illusory self, with waves or flows of attachments and vexations, so to avoid confusion we shouldnt call a mind without self a "mind" but rather Wisdom, no-mind is also called True Mind. I think it definitely can be confusing if using terms from different traditions, for me what Joe describes is not interesting in discussing whether it is "awakening" or not, but that is what usually happens, I think it's best that this topic is dropped indeed if it continues if others (unqualified probably) make this topic about what qualifies as awakening or not, charlatans or whatever. I thank Joe for sharing his experience and Jundo for this whole thread about the zen of everything. I hope though that we can ignore our own stupidity and drunkness about critisicing other teachers, paths etc analyzing who's wise and who's a fool.

I've never seen that lead to anything good or constructive.

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by avisitor » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:34 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:24 pm
I feel that what we are discussing in this thread is just what "no mind" actually means while one is still going about one's business out in the world where,
There are times when action is require and not thought
Such as when a samurai is in battle with his sword out
If he thinks for a second then it may cost him his life
Action and not reaction is necessary to survive

That is a poor example of going about one's business in the world without having to think
But, it lends an eye to see how somethings do not need thoughts
Of course, it isn't the same as doing a crossword puzzle or scientific report
But, eating when hungry and sleeping when tired.

Yeah, I got to learn when to shutup. :hatsoff:

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Re: 'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' with Jundo & Kirk is ON THE AIR!

Post by p22 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:37 am

There's paying attention, not paying attention and oh, shit, I missed the exit-

There's deprivation paying attention, when your brain attempts to make sense of what it thinks it sees in your peripheral vision or directly head-

And then there's atavism:

Atavism

1
Sometimes in the open you look up
where birds go by, or just nothing,
and wait. A dim feeling comes
you were like this once, there was air,
and quiet; it was by a lake, or
maybe a river you were alert
as an otter and were suddenly born
like the evening star into wide
still worlds like this one you have found
again, for a moment, in the open.


2
Something is being told in the woods:
aisles of shadow lead away; a branch waves;
a pencil of sunlight slowly travels its
path. A withheld presence almost
speaks, but then retreats, rustles
a patch of brush. You can feel
the centuries ripple generations
of wandering, discovering, being lost
and found, eating, dying, being born.
A walk through the forest strokes your fur,
the fur you no longer have. And your gaze
down a forest aisle is a strange, long
plunge, dark eyes looking for home.
For delicious minutes you can feel your whiskers
wider than your mind, away out over everything.

-- William Stafford

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