Wisdom of Zen?

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avisitor
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Wisdom of Zen?

Post by avisitor » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Recently heard someone speak about the wisdom of Zen.
What does that mean?

We have all heard the Four Noble Truths
Suffering
Cause of Suffering
End of Suffering
Path that Leads to the End of Suffering

We have all heard the story of the the water in the bucket reflecting the moon
That Zen or Zazen centers and calms the mind so one can see the truth of oneself
So what is this Wisdom of Zen?

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fuki
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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:50 pm

avisitor wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:32 pm
So what is this Wisdom of Zen?
It is what the wise lack.

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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by avisitor » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:38 am

Wow, surprised that more people did not even try to guess

My guess would be that Zazen gives rise to practice which centers and calms a person
The wisdom of Zen should be the integration of enlightenment into one's daily compassionate actions
Say for example, after ..., one sees how eating meat causes harm to animals
And decides to not eat meat.

Yeah, guess that sounds silly :hide:

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fuki
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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:55 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:38 am

My guess would be that Zazen gives rise to practice which centers and calms a person
The wisdom of Zen should be the integration of enlightenment into one's daily compassionate actions
Say for example, after ..., one sees how eating meat causes harm to animals
And decides to not eat meat.

Yeah, guess that sounds silly :hide:
Taking your example I agree that 'wisdom' is a response or universal function that arises due to causes and conditions, but that is something which transcend religious reference points, while the word zen is mostly associated with a specific path or school of buddhist practise. When as a young boy seeing images from a slaughterhouse I knew that those cows/pigs were nothing other then 'me' So I felt their suffering and horror as (if) it is this very body, then again I was still capable especially when the hormones kicked to have negative feelings/thoughts towards humans, there is a Chinese phrase that goes "One body, great compassion" I'd say eventhough it are only words that expresses the 'wisdom of zen' indeed. Then again due to all kinds of deeply rooted habits or 'karmas' we can also block or cover its functioning, so "it" is always "ready"/responsive and attuned to things, it's just a matter of not being a stubborn idiot or deluded "person"

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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by Nothing » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:31 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:38 am
Wow, surprised that more people did not even try to guess

My guess would be that Zazen gives rise to practice which centers and calms a person
The wisdom of Zen should be the integration of enlightenment into one's daily compassionate actions
Say for example, after ..., one sees how eating meat causes harm to animals
And decides to not eat meat.

Yeah, guess that sounds silly :hide:
No, it doesn't sound silly at all. When one realize that one's behavior is doing harm to oneself and the others and stop to do that further it is wisdom for sure. I just wouldn't call it zen wisdom since wisdom is universal ans doesn't belong to any tradition, school etc...
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

avisitor
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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:42 am

Nothing wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:31 pm
No, it doesn't sound silly at all. When one realize that one's behavior is doing harm to oneself and the others and stop to do that further it is wisdom for sure. I just wouldn't call it zen wisdom since wisdom is universal ans doesn't belong to any tradition, school etc...
When the wisdom being exercised is those of the teachings of Zen Buddhism's precepts, Dharma, maybe call it Zen wisdom??
It is after enlightenment that those precepts are no longer rules to abide by
But, they become the correct action that can be seen and be done
It comes from the compassion inside of one

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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by desertwoodworker » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:18 am

avisitor wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:32 pm
So what is this Wisdom of Zen?
Who knows what that speaker may have been speaking of, and if they knew what they were to be speaking of or not. And it doesn't matter.

But the wisdom important in Buddhism is true Wisdom, prajna, as we know, or may have learned. ;-)

If you've (some person) experienced it, it is the true Wisdom that arises when one is awake. There is no other. And, there is no wisdom of "Zen" in particular, as distinct from this. Prajna is it. It's liberated when there is no mind. No-mind.

That takes some "doing". Usually, it takes practice with teacher and sangha. Some will unhelpfully disagree, but then, they have no way of proving (testing) if no-mind has in fact been reached. Whereas, a teacher can do this. One cannot do this for oneself. Anyway, there is no self. See? :!:

But I state the obvious, if anyone's done relevant reading about Wisdom in Buddhist circles, or has exactly related pointed experience.

Hi, Av, best Summertime greetings! Happy new Season, and Best Wishes for strong practice, and health maintenance,

--J.

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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by avisitor » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:36 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:18 am
Hi, Av, best Summertime greetings! Happy new Season, and Best Wishes for strong practice, and health maintenance,

--J.
Hi Joe,
Yes, summertime greetings!
Summertime heat!!
Have a happy, healthy and safe practice!

Tom

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desertwoodworker
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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by desertwoodworker » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:38 am

Thanks!, Tom. And good to catch up with you again, very good.

Warm. It's like a desert out there!

--J.

ps (103, but does not feel a degree over 102!)

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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by Nothing » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:38 pm

avisitor wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:42 am
Nothing wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:31 pm
No, it doesn't sound silly at all. When one realize that one's behavior is doing harm to oneself and the others and stop to do that further it is wisdom for sure. I just wouldn't call it zen wisdom since wisdom is universal ans doesn't belong to any tradition, school etc...
When the wisdom being exercised is those of the teachings of Zen Buddhism's precepts, Dharma, maybe call it Zen wisdom??
It is after enlightenment that those precepts are no longer rules to abide by
But, they become the correct action that can be seen and be done
It comes from the compassion inside of one
Yes, you can put it that way.
In the Avamtasaka Sutra it is said: "The precepts are foundation of Supreme Enlightenment"
The precepts as I see them describe the behavior of the Buddha, the Awakened One.
So an ignorant fool like me can only try to mimic, practice or keep the precepts as best as possible and in keeping them one is lessening/removing the obstructions that prevents one to awaken and it that sense that can be called conventional wisdom and it is a needed or a prerequisite to awaken to the true Wisdom that Joe mentioned in his post when the precepts are no longer precepts but are fully embodied.
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

avisitor
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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by avisitor » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:03 pm

Someone once said that there is no Zen.
It is all Zen Buddhism
It is all the Buddha's Dharma
And much has been said that when one reaches enlightenment that there will be compassion and wisdom
So, I am just wondering about it.
What is this Wisdom of Zen?
Is the answer in the Buddha's Dharma? Or Sutras?
What makes it different from ordinary wisdom?

There are stories of a disciple who becomes enlightened
The teacher asked what have you gained?
The answer came back as absolutely nothing
So we do Zazen. Nothing to gain, no goal, nothing to achieve.

:107:

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desertwoodworker
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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by desertwoodworker » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:56 am

Av, Tom,

It takes a change of body, which affects the mind. The newly liberated mind will then manifest true Wisdom, and true Compassion.

But that mind is no-mind.

If it feels that there is a mind at all, then that is not the mind we're talking about, the mind that deals in true Wisdom and true Compassion.

True, as you say, nothing is gained on awakening. Instead, in order to awaken, a lot has to be lost. Many people -- most people -- don't have the stomach for that. So, most people don't know what is meant by awakening, and by true Wisdom, true Compassion, and no-mind. Practice to that level or depth requires very good cooperating causes and conditions. Many people can't muster or find this, often through no fault of theirs. For example, a teacher may not be nearby! Or, a person may not be able to practice intensively, due to life conditions. There are many life-stories that carry obstacles to awakening.

But I think that any modicum of correct practice can give a person at least some relief from suffering, and some ways of helping others.

And, during the time of practice, at least the person is not getting into trouble, rabble-rousing, or causing suffering in others.

There are no "answers" in any writings, no, absolutely not, ever, anywhere. Changes come only when the body changes.

I think it always bears repeating that one should not neglect physical practice. Zazen is one admittedly physical practice, and there are others that support zazen and enable zazen to deepen.

Better not to rely on "zen stories" and snippets from here or there about zazen, or quotes from sutras. Best is to work through the body to deepen zazen and make it stable and health-giving.

Through health, our original nature becomes closer to us, and re-gainable. But the false mind must be allowed to die, or it must be starved-out. That is definite.

This is my opinion, and experience! And the experience of many, many others, through time. There's no help except through work within the body. There is no mind.

:namaste:

--Joe
avisitor wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:03 pm
Someone once said that there is no Zen.
It is all Zen Buddhism
It is all the Buddha's Dharma
And much has been said that when one reaches enlightenment that there will be compassion and wisdom
So, I am just wondering about it.
What is this Wisdom of Zen?
Is the answer in the Buddha's Dharma? Or Sutras?
What makes it different from ordinary wisdom?

There are stories of a disciple who becomes enlightened
The teacher asked what have you gained?
The answer came back as absolutely nothing
So we do Zazen. Nothing to gain, no goal, nothing to achieve.

:107:

avisitor
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:01 am

Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by avisitor » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:19 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:56 am
Av, Tom,

It takes a change of body, which affects the mind. The newly liberated mind will then manifest true Wisdom, and true Compassion.

But that mind is no-mind.
Joe, thanks, for the kind words and understanding

Tom

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Re: Wisdom of Zen?

Post by desertwoodworker » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:36 am

Tom, I don't hold back what's clear to me, and I stand ready to consider to be corrected or enlarged if necessary. And it's a pleasure to be able to share.

:namaste:

--Joe

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