Ten Precepts

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p22
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:24 pm

Ever see a veg-o-matic? It slices, it dices- Each time you utilize it, it appears you get the same fixed shapes- But you don't-

There's a gas station chain in the states called True North, each location has a compass rose laid into the floor, always pointing to a different part of the store, coffee, ice cream, cupcakes- The door- The parking lot where one type of tree or collection of undergrowth used to be but isn't anymore-

Rocks change- They erode, exposing new veins and colorful shades-

::trigger warning::

Attending church as a child, the priest (who for all anyone knew, abused their sons) used to yammer on and on how you ought not to do the deadly 7 things, as if there wasn't other stuff one couldn't do to another-

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:59 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:19 am
p22 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:25 pm
#6 Is broken and cannot be repaired- It's just another concept rooted in passivity to keep people quiet and submissive rather than engaging in discussion and taking necessary action to work towards a solution-
Yes true, but at the same different teachers differently translate that precept and then give more elaborate presentation of the role, the meaning of that precept, since any precept can be misunderstood or not fully understood when they are just put like a list, that is why there is a thing called the study of the precepts.
As I understand that precept it is not avoidance of disscuion , or to remain silent and not be critical when one's behaviour is harmful towards the others, but it is definitely it can be very easily misunderstood to be passive.

But for most folks who are not involved in any harmful behaviour it is good precept, it is usually divisive speech, slander speech, like them and us, I am better than the other, putting oneself on pedestal, or giving oneself too much importance, it is always others fault, reafirming or make it stronger the self, the separation etc... you get the gist of it.
I got a reply from Guo Gu regarding the 6th precept ☺

the 6th precepts refer to bhikshu bodhisattvas. the function of the 6th precept is to not disrupt/harm the bodhisattva bhikshu/bhikshuni sangha and its relationship with the laity. it's an offshoot of one of the five heinous offences in buddhism (matricide, patricide, killing a saint [arhat/bodhisattva], wounding the body of the Buddha, and disrupting the harmony of the sangha). the unity and harmony of the sangha is one of the most important things in buddhadharma. the original context of this precept has to do with the laity criticizing the bodhisattva sangha, thereby causing disharmony of the sangha's relationship with the laity.

bodhisattvas have their own precept practices--much more detailed than that of 5 precepts--and their own way to handle misconduct. for light offences: reveal and repent to one bodhisattva bhikshu; intermediate offence: reveal and repent to 2-3 bodhisattvas; grave offence: reveal and repent to the whole sangha; prajika offence: reveal and expulsion from the bodhisattva sangha. if there's an offence and the offender does not reveal and repent, then another bodhisattva can reveal with evidence to the sangha for the offender to reveal and repent. if the offender refuses, then a virtuous bodhisattva bhikshu shall on behave of the sangha reveal to the laity so as to cut off the food and offering supply for the offender. if the sangha doesn't know about the offence, but a laity knows of it, then that laity may talk to the offender privately, encourage him/her to reveal and repent. it's never done publically because this will spread misunderstandings and destroy the harmony of the sangha. for the laity to critique the former generally would be like an elementary student critiquing the phd student's work. phd students have their own procedure to handle misconduct. if the bodhisattva conceals the misconduct, there's also a way to have him/her reveal and repent.

hope this helps.

ps Brother (Viktor)
I meant the 1000th total post on zenspace :D

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:09 pm

desertwoodworker wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:25 pm
Fuki, et al.,

From time to time I mention that one of my appreciations of the Precepts is to take them as DESCRIPTIVE.

In particular, they DESCRIBE THE BEHAVIOR OF A BUDDHA, a person who is awake.

To wit:

No killing;

No stealing;

No lying,

etc.
I sometimes lie, especially when mom can't help herself asking things over and over which is not her business or has no relation to her and mine 'personal' relationship.
It's mostly habit, there's no conscious decision involved or illusion of personal volition, aka interpretation upon perception of "choise" Sentient beings are nothing but balls (sometimes furry) of habits and memories anyway.
not in any way a matter of WILL. It's a matter, instead, of effective practice.
Yes, "but" besides to naturally responding free of a "will" to causes and conditions, we can still have our wholesome agendas, call it will or not. Which varies from practisioner (bodhisattva) to practisioner.

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:25 pm

Crystal wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:20 am
The eight-fold path is part of the Four Noble Truths

First life is suffering
It is my understanding that the first Noble Truth is: "There is suffering"... and not " Life is suffering"
I prefer stressful or just dukkha, since wherever there is (manifest) consciousness there is stress, which is just natural, like pain and pleasure. But the "there" is key, there is stress, there is consciousness which is like a "witness" or "observation" "position" But most ppl are stuck in the personal or private sense so they say "I am conscious" or "I am alive" or "I am suffering" Live isn't personal, nor is consciousness. Ofcourse nothing need to be said, but if something needs to be said, it's best to expediently "say" (though not perse in a thought-format) "There is consciousness" or "there is pain/pleasure" never "I am conscious" or "I'm in pain"

In the "witness position" when asking "who am I" or "what is this" potentially the mental construct of the observer, observing and observed vanish and one thereby knows "beyond dualistic experience" one is not (and never has been) in the field of consciousness, so there has never been a question of suffering or a journey.

However as long for the allotted time span the body is there, or remains, sure stress is a part of it, as laughing and crying is, cause those are the causes and conditions locally known as life, but it's nothing sticky or stingy anymore, as someone once said; "pain is enevitable, suffering optional" (Suzuki?)

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desertwoodworker
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by desertwoodworker » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:33 pm

Ohayo!,

( = "good morning")

Quoting a bit, as we do:
fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:09 pm
Yes, "but" besides to naturally responding free of a "will" to causes and conditions, we can still have our wholesome agendas, call it will or not. Which varies from practisioner (bodhisattva) to practisioner.
Fuki, what I mean is that "adhering" to the precepts (say, to a given particular precept) is not a matter of will. To "adhere to" -- and in fact to align perfectly with a precept -- requires practice, so that there is no self. In other words, one must be awake for there to be no gap between your behavior and the behavior of a Buddha. Well, naturally: being a buddha "just" means being awake,

This is my understanding of the Precepts, in one way of approach to and appreciation of them. There are other ways, but I take the precepts as "Descriptive", not Prescriptive". Descriptive, not normative. (I didn't always, but I've come to do so). To me, it's more instructive that way.

"Instructive" (informative... ) about what one must do: Wake up!

(my wish for myself, and for all beings)

:namaste:

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:59 pm

Aloha ahiahi, Joe!
desertwoodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:33 pm

There are other ways, but I take the precepts as "Descriptive", not Prescriptive". Descriptive, not normative. (I didn't always, but I've come to do so). To me, it's more instructive that way.
Got ya, some of the precepts were descriptive in the sense they were natural "fruitations" as a young boy long before ever hearing of precepts, so I prescribed them to others (non-killing/exploiting/non-profiting of sentient beings aka "veganism" etc) ;)

But often I "lose my way" or gets covered up by you know what, and they're prescriptive for myself instead of just descriptive, beyond words and letters. So yes "practise, practise, practise"
Wake up!
(my wish for myself, and for all beings)
:namaste:

Pwactise....
613f73ddd9ecb49315f14dcba46bd3f5.png
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desertwoodworker
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by desertwoodworker » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:30 pm

Pwactice!

Shown here 'pwaying' on the 'instwument', wike a good 'wabbit'.

tele.jpg
We polished that brick into a nice new Mirror...
---
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Cactus Makes Perfect,

--Joe

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Crystal
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Crystal » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:38 pm

fuki wrote:I prefer stressful or just dukkha, since wherever there is (manifest) consciousness there is stress, which is just natural, like pain and pleasure
Yes, I think "stress" is probably better.


.

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:55 pm

Crystal wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:38 pm

Yes, I think "stress" is probably better.
No why? I was just having a good time! :lol:
desertwoodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:30 pm
Pwactice!

Shown here 'pwaying' on the 'instwument', wike a good 'wabbit'.

tele.jpg
Cactus Makes Perfect,
:lol:

Funny in memory I had that lens on the ground reflecting dark matter, really! Can't trust any reflectollection to be true (accurate) these days ;)

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:34 am

Crystal wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:20 am
The eight-fold path is part of the Four Noble Truths

First life is suffering
It is my understanding that the first Noble Truth is: "There is suffering"... and not " Life is suffering"


_/|\_
Take it however you wish.
Cause it is like JundoCohen and Meido talking about Shikantaza.
They are both saying the same thing.

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:56 am

avisitor wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:34 am
JundoCohen and Meido
Nah they're thiefs cutting your moon in half :P

d93f3a340aac0b0e81a96248cc64e57a.jpg
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Nothing
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:09 am

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:48 pm
Nothing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:29 pm
p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:29 pm

Everyone could be someone who thinks they aren't committing harm, which in itself .. has proven disastrous ..
Thanks for sharing the poem, it was long time ago when I read it.

Yes, it could be. That is why sincere fellow friends/practitioners/teachers are needed to show us our wrong doings and correct us when we are doing harm to others and therefore to ourselves. That is why practice is not recommended to be done in isolation.

Sheng Yen used to say to take from his teaching that what you like, you do not need to agree with everything that he is teaching.
Same with the precepts, if some precept(s) does not resonate with you, dismiss it for the time being and and return to it some time later, months or years etc... :) Anyway precepts should not be taken lightly ever. They are one of the three pilars of buddhist practice. To practice without the precepts is to have a practice with very shaky foundation.

In Rinzai Zen precepts are also taken as koans for example.
You're welcome and thank you for engaging in discussion-

To be clear, I'm not a practitioner- I'm just another planet inhabitant- Regardless, I do appreciate you sharing your experience as a practitioner, including the teachings that resonate with you as well as your perception of the precept and providing me ample space for not seeing things exactly the same-

I do agree with Avi that it is akin to "do unto others" but that both have psychological booby-traps, that and other crap, not to mention that the precepts and other schools of thought rules were written (scribbled down :106: ) by guys/males-

:namaste:
Thank you Teresa, likewise :hatsoff:

We are all inhabitants and guests of the this planet/universe and all of us are practitioners since practice is not some static framework, it is fluid, dynamic, a result and a response to causes and conditions at a given time and space.

Yes, true, written by males, unfortunately throughout the history (things are different today, both west and east, especially west and are further improving ) all spiritual/religious traditions/schools including Buddhism of course, were chauvinistic to some degree, some more, some less. And as a guy I apologise for the unequal treatment endured by our fellow female practitioners :115:
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:16 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:59 pm
Nothing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:19 am
p22 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:25 pm
#6 Is broken and cannot be repaired- It's just another concept rooted in passivity to keep people quiet and submissive rather than engaging in discussion and taking necessary action to work towards a solution-
Yes true, but at the same different teachers differently translate that precept and then give more elaborate presentation of the role, the meaning of that precept, since any precept can be misunderstood or not fully understood when they are just put like a list, that is why there is a thing called the study of the precepts.
As I understand that precept it is not avoidance of disscuion , or to remain silent and not be critical when one's behaviour is harmful towards the others, but it is definitely it can be very easily misunderstood to be passive.

But for most folks who are not involved in any harmful behaviour it is good precept, it is usually divisive speech, slander speech, like them and us, I am better than the other, putting oneself on pedestal, or giving oneself too much importance, it is always others fault, reafirming or make it stronger the self, the separation etc... you get the gist of it.
I got a reply from Guo Gu regarding the 6th precept ☺

the 6th precepts refer to bhikshu bodhisattvas. the function of the 6th precept is to not disrupt/harm the bodhisattva bhikshu/bhikshuni sangha and its relationship with the laity. it's an offshoot of one of the five heinous offences in buddhism (matricide, patricide, killing a saint [arhat/bodhisattva], wounding the body of the Buddha, and disrupting the harmony of the sangha). the unity and harmony of the sangha is one of the most important things in buddhadharma. the original context of this precept has to do with the laity criticizing the bodhisattva sangha, thereby causing disharmony of the sangha's relationship with the laity.

bodhisattvas have their own precept practices--much more detailed than that of 5 precepts--and their own way to handle misconduct. for light offences: reveal and repent to one bodhisattva bhikshu; intermediate offence: reveal and repent to 2-3 bodhisattvas; grave offence: reveal and repent to the whole sangha; prajika offence: reveal and expulsion from the bodhisattva sangha. if there's an offence and the offender does not reveal and repent, then another bodhisattva can reveal with evidence to the sangha for the offender to reveal and repent. if the offender refuses, then a virtuous bodhisattva bhikshu shall on behave of the sangha reveal to the laity so as to cut off the food and offering supply for the offender. if the sangha doesn't know about the offence, but a laity knows of it, then that laity may talk to the offender privately, encourage him/her to reveal and repent. it's never done publically because this will spread misunderstandings and destroy the harmony of the sangha. for the laity to critique the former generally would be like an elementary student critiquing the phd student's work. phd students have their own procedure to handle misconduct. if the bodhisattva conceals the misconduct, there's also a way to have him/her reveal and repent.

hope this helps.

ps Brother (Viktor)
I meant the 1000th total post on zenspace :D
Thanks Brother for sharing that and thanks to Guo Gu for his explanation, appreciated :namaste:

P. S. To celebrate the 1000th anniversary vegan non gmo coffee for everyone :mrgreen: :112:
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

Nothing
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:20 am

Crystal wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:38 pm
fuki wrote:I prefer stressful or just dukkha, since wherever there is (manifest) consciousness there is stress, which is just natural, like pain and pleasure
Yes, I think "stress" is probably better.


.
Yes.

Jeff Shore translates it as dis-ease, or not being at ease.
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

p22
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:00 pm

It's how it's translated/written in the book of Rinzai: dis-ease-

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