Ten Precepts

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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:32 am

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:27 am
The last frame of the comic, the dharmavegan topic: Splat! 😊
Did you mean flat? :lol:
We (all) are standing in the shadow of what's already happened and is about to- Proceed with compassion- And when you cannot, fight like fuck -- without mistaking one for the other-
:D
The black-eyed susan seeds I planted in the garden migrated and are growing between the cracks in the pavement-
2016-01-27 19.06.08.png
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fuki
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 am

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:25 am


There is no such thing
zfi turtle zombies! :D

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:47 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:32 am
p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:27 am
The last frame of the comic, the dharmavegan topic: Splat! 😊
Did you mean flat? :lol:
We (all) are standing in the shadow of what's already happened and is about to- Proceed with compassion- And when you cannot, fight like fuck -- without mistaking one for the other-
:D
The black-eyed susan seeds I planted in the garden migrated and are growing between the cracks in the pavement-
2016-01-27 19.06.08.png
Now now, Howl ..

https://m.facebook.com/madman/videos/10156687916553478/

:115:

Learn to read the words in green .. They're the sound of one hand slapping back ..

:110:

Image

Peter, Peter pumpkin eater,
Had a wife but couldn't keep her;
He put her in a pumpkin shell
And there he kept her very well-

Peter, Peter pumpkin eater,
Had another and didn't love her;
Peter learned to read and spell,
And then he loved her very well-

:100:

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Crystal
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Crystal » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:43 am

.

Not understanding how any of the above is relevant to the topic title of "Ten Precepts"

:103:


Image


.

Have a good day everyone, and take care. _/|\_

.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:59 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:03 pm
Nothing wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:26 pm
fuki wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:30 am
Thanks Avi,
I'm currently listening to GG's talks regarding precepts.
https://tallahasseechan.org/teachings/d ... pts-talks/

When I'm done with the 4 parts I might chip in.
Some time ago was listening them...
Congrats Brother, you just posted the 1000th post on zenspace! :mrgreen:
:109:
Hmm? 67 i see brother :shock:
or i missed the joke? :D
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:19 am

p22 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:25 pm
#6 Is broken and cannot be repaired- It's just another concept rooted in passivity to keep people quiet and submissive rather than engaging in discussion and taking necessary action to work towards a solution-
Yes true, but at the same different teachers differently translate that precept and then give more elaborate presentation of the role, the meaning of that precept, since any precept can be misunderstood or not fully understood when they are just put like a list, that is why there is a thing called the study of the precepts.
As I understand that precept it is not avoidance of disscuion , or to remain silent and not be critical when one's behaviour is harmful towards the others, but it is definitely it can be very easily misunderstood to be passive.

But for most folks who are not involved in any harmful behaviour it is good precept, it is usually divisive speech, slander speech, like them and us, I am better than the other, putting oneself on pedestal, or giving oneself too much importance, it is always others fault, reafirming or make it stronger the self, the separation etc... you get the gist of it.
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

avisitor
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:27 pm

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:25 am
The section of his comments I highlighted in green didn't get addressed ..
Original intent?
Wouldn't that be to bring one closer to being enlightened?
Or to bring one's action to being more enlightened?
Or to end creating more negative Karma?
It was not intended to hide anyone or anything from the truth

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:25 am
If not broken, then open to interpretation of the type that could result in breakage/harm, the type of harm he mentioned and addressed?

So it would be prudent to clarify its true meaning-

If not, then yes, it's a broken precept-

"Do unto others" has just as many psychological booby-traps-

There is no such thing as a statically-enlightened being-
Anyone and everyone will take and use words to their own ends.
Just look at what people have done with the Bible.
Quotes taken out of context and whatever
It would be difficult if not impossible to prevent such things even if there was written clarification
Also, believe there are no precept police to keep others from doing what they will with this precept

Sorry, do not understand what is a statically-enlightened being??
It seems that you have many concerns about this precept??

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:12 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:19 am
p22 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:25 pm
#6 Is broken and cannot be repaired- It's just another concept rooted in passivity to keep people quiet and submissive rather than engaging in discussion and taking necessary action to work towards a solution-
Yes true, but at the same different teachers differently translate that precept and then give more elaborate presentation of the role, the meaning of that precept, since any precept can be misunderstood or not fully understood when they are just put like a list, that is why there is a thing called the study of the precepts.
As I understand that precept it is not avoidance of disscuion , or to remain silent and not be critical when one's behaviour is harmful towards the others, but it is definitely it can be very easily misunderstood to be passive.

But for most folks who are not involved in any harmful behaviour it is good precept, it is usually divisive speech, slander speech, like them and us, I am better than the other, putting oneself on pedestal, or giving oneself too much importance, it is always others fault, reafirming or make it stronger the self, the separation etc... you get the gist of it.
I don't believe that any people aren't involved in any harmful behavior, Nothing- I can only reduce the precept to being clear about what any one individual will or won't allow, and then own their chosen course of action-

But that's not the way the precept appears on the list- It's dismissive-

:namaste:

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:23 pm

avisitor wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:27 pm
p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:25 am
The section of his comments I highlighted in green didn't get addressed ..
Original intent?
Wouldn't that be to bring one closer to being enlightened?
Or to bring one's action to being more enlightened?
Or to end creating more negative Karma?
It was not intended to hide anyone or anything from the truth

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:25 am
If not broken, then open to interpretation of the type that could result in breakage/harm, the type of harm he mentioned and addressed?

So it would be prudent to clarify its true meaning-

If not, then yes, it's a broken precept-

"Do unto others" has just as many psychological booby-traps-

There is no such thing as a statically-enlightened being-
Anyone and everyone will take and use words to their own ends.
Just look at what people have done with the Bible.
Quotes taken out of context and whatever
It would be difficult if not impossible to prevent such things even if there was written clarification
Also, believe there are no precept police to keep others from doing what they will with this precept

Sorry, do not understand what is a statically-enlightened being??
It seems that you have many concerns about this precept??
My concern is that the way in which it's presented on the list dismisses discussion-

Avi, what being is enlightened 24/7?

:namaste:

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:56 pm

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:12 pm
Nothing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:19 am
p22 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:25 pm
#6 Is broken and cannot be repaired- It's just another concept rooted in passivity to keep people quiet and submissive rather than engaging in discussion and taking necessary action to work towards a solution-
Yes true, but at the same different teachers differently translate that precept and then give more elaborate presentation of the role, the meaning of that precept, since any precept can be misunderstood or not fully understood when they are just put like a list, that is why there is a thing called the study of the precepts.
As I understand that precept it is not avoidance of disscuion , or to remain silent and not be critical when one's behaviour is harmful towards the others, but it is definitely it can be very easily misunderstood to be passive.

But for most folks who are not involved in any harmful behaviour it is good precept, it is usually divisive speech, slander speech, like them and us, I am better than the other, putting oneself on pedestal, or giving oneself too much importance, it is always others fault, reafirming or make it stronger the self, the separation etc... you get the gist of it.
I don't believe that any people aren't involved in any harmful behavior, Nothing- I can only reduce the precept to being clear about what any one individual will or won't allow, and then own their chosen course of action-

But that's not the way the precept appears on the list- It's dismissive-

:namaste:
Yes, understand and agree with you as before, just was sharing my take/understanding of the precept, I will never take the precept literally without further exploration, or close examination ;)


About harmful behaviour i mean something more serious in nature and imo do not think that most of the practitioners/teachers are involved in that kind of behavior that can seriously hurt other people,though of course at times when we are vexated we can say things that may offend/hurt the other in a way. But of course we all know of examples where harmful behaviour was not called out unfortunately and further damage was done.

Some render the 6th precept "A follower of The Way does not slander"
And i think that is quite good way to put it and does not say for example that if a student sees wrong conduct or harmful behavior from the teacher towards others that one should remain passive and silent. If that is seen and one speak about, then it is not slander.

Gassho,

Viktor
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

Autumnday
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Autumnday » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:14 pm

:waving:


Please correct me if my thinking is misguided, but Precepts are guidelines for us to consult on how to treat ourselves and others. They are the moral principles that we all try to live up to and act as life preservers when we remove ourselves from the path.

:?: :113:

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:29 pm

Poem: Please Call Me By My True Names
#37 Autumn 2004
By Thich Nhat Hanh

Don’t say that I will depart tomorrow— even today I am still arriving.

Look deeply: every second I am arriving to be a bud on a Spring branch, to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings, learning to sing in my new nest, to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower, to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry, to fear and to hope. The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death of all that is alive.

I am a mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river. And I am the bird that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am a frog swimming happily in the clear water of a pond. And I am the grass-snake that silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones, my legs as thin as bamboo sticks. And I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat, who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea pirate.

And I am also the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my hands. And I am the man who has to pay his “debt of blood” to my people dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth. My pain is like a river of tears, so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names, so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once, so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names, so I can wake up and the door of my heart could be left open, the door of compassion.

--------------------------------------------------

Everyone could be someone who thinks they aren't committing harm, which in itself .. has proven disastrous ..

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:29 pm

p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:29 pm

Everyone could be someone who thinks they aren't committing harm, which in itself .. has proven disastrous ..
Thanks for sharing the poem, it was long time ago when I read it.

Yes, it could be. That is why sincere fellow friends/practitioners/teachers are needed to show us our wrong doings and correct us when we are doing harm to others and therefore to ourselves. That is why practice is not recommended to be done in isolation.

Sheng Yen used to say to take from his teaching that what you like, you do not need to agree with everything that he is teaching.
Same with the precepts, if some precept(s) does not resonate with you, dismiss it for the time being and and return to it some time later, months or years etc... :) Anyway precepts should not be taken lightly ever. They are one of the three pilars of buddhist practice. To practice without the precepts is to have a practice with very shaky foundation.

In Rinzai Zen precepts are also taken as koans for example.
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

p22
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:48 pm

Nothing wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:29 pm
p22 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:29 pm

Everyone could be someone who thinks they aren't committing harm, which in itself .. has proven disastrous ..
Thanks for sharing the poem, it was long time ago when I read it.

Yes, it could be. That is why sincere fellow friends/practitioners/teachers are needed to show us our wrong doings and correct us when we are doing harm to others and therefore to ourselves. That is why practice is not recommended to be done in isolation.

Sheng Yen used to say to take from his teaching that what you like, you do not need to agree with everything that he is teaching.
Same with the precepts, if some precept(s) does not resonate with you, dismiss it for the time being and and return to it some time later, months or years etc... :) Anyway precepts should not be taken lightly ever. They are one of the three pilars of buddhist practice. To practice without the precepts is to have a practice with very shaky foundation.

In Rinzai Zen precepts are also taken as koans for example.
You're welcome and thank you for engaging in discussion-

To be clear, I'm not a practitioner- I'm just another planet inhabitant- Regardless, I do appreciate you sharing your experience as a practitioner, including the teachings that resonate with you as well as your perception of the precept and providing me ample space for not seeing things exactly the same-

I do agree with Avi that it is akin to "do unto others" but that both have psychological booby-traps, that and other crap, not to mention that the precepts and other schools of thought rules were written (scribbled down :106: ) by guys/males-

:namaste:

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:25 pm

Fuki, et al.,

From time to time I mention that one of my appreciations of the Precepts is to take them as DESCRIPTIVE.

In particular, they DESCRIBE THE BEHAVIOR OF A BUDDHA, a person who is awake.

To wit:

No killing;

No stealing;

No lying,

etc.

A person who is awake just does not behave in ways of killing, stealing, lying, etc.

That should tell us something, as practitioners.

To me, it tells me just to cut that stuff out.

And the elements of the Eightfold Path tell me how to come to do so, in particular, since behaving as a Buddha characteristically behaves is not in any way a matter of WILL. It's a matter, instead, of effective practice.

My couple of red cents,

--Joe

US_ind_head_cent_1908S.jpg
Good cents.
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:26 am

Certainly did not believe there to be so much discussion about the precepts
Now, I feel like the blind man feeling the tail of the elephant
And arguing that an elephant is similar to a rope

Thanks Joe for that example.
Last edited by avisitor on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by desertwoodworker » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:34 am

Huh? What "controversy"?

The way of approaching the Precepts that I mention is, as I wrote, one way of appreciating them.

"Descriptive", rather than Prescriptive or Proscriptive.

Or, say, just "Descriptive", rather than normative.

--Joe

ps Bringing in the Eightfold Path is, I think helpful and necessary, because, again, aligning with the Precepts is NOT a matter of will, but a matter of practice, a matter of our actually changing so that our behavior is exactly that of a Buddha's, a person who is awake. It's through practice upon the Eightfold Path that we change.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:20 am

The eight-fold path is part of the Four Noble Truths

First life is suffering
Second the cause of suffering
Third the end of suffering
Fourth the path that leads to the end of suffering

So, it it the path that leads to the end of suffering
And the ten precepts are part of that path

Joe, thanks again for the reminder.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by desertwoodworker » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:23 am

Av, Tom,

Well, the Eightfold Path is the path.

And I think that "fulfillment" of the Eightfold Path will in fact result in the Precepts being able naturally to describe one's behavior (if we're awake).

Else, there may be some kind or kinds of "Precepts practice", or "Precepts study", which can be helpful, overall. A teacher can help, in this, and usually does.

Thanks for our comradery, Tom, and everyone,

Best,

--Joe
avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:20 am
The eight-fold path is part of the Four Noble Truths

First life is suffering
Second the cause of suffering
Third the end of suffering
Fourth the path that leads to the end of suffering

So, it it the path that leads to the end of suffering
And the ten precepts are part of that path

Joe, thanks again for the reminder.

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Crystal
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Crystal » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm

avisitor wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:20 am
The eight-fold path is part of the Four Noble Truths

First life is suffering
It is my understanding that the first Noble Truth is: "There is suffering"... and not " Life is suffering"


_/|\_

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