Ten Precepts

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p22
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:46 am

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:47 am

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:37 pm

[PDF] Kobun, Sesshin Talks - Terebess
https://terebess.hu › zen › mesterek

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:49 am

From the Shurangama Sutra; (Commentary [in the links]by the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua)
http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama1/shur ... ntents.asp
The Three Non-Outflow Studies

Unalterable Instruction on Purity

One Must Cut Off Killing

VOLUME 6, Chapter 1

http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama6/shurangama6_2.asp

Sutra:

These ghosts and spirits have their groups of disciples.
Each says of himself that he has accomplished the Unsurpassed Way.

After my extinction, in the Dharma-ending Age, these hordes of ghosts and spirits will abound, spreading like wildfire as they argue that eating meat will bring one to the Bodhi Way.

Ananda, I permit the bhikshus to eat five kinds of pure meat. This meat is actually a transformation brought into being by my spiritual powers. It basically has no life-force. You brahmans live in a climate so hot and humid, and on such sandy and rocky land, that vegetables will not grow; therefore, I have had to assist you with spiritual powers and compassion. Because of the magnitude of this kindness and compassion, what you ea that tastes like meat is merely said to be meat; in fact, however, it is not. After my extinction, how can those who eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya?

You should know that these people who eat meat may gain some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all great rakshasas. When their retribution ends, they are bound to sink into the bitter sea of birth and death. They are not disciples of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle. How can such people transcend the triple realm?

When you teach people in the world to cultivate samadhi, they must also cut off killing. This is the second clear and unalterable instruction on purity given by the Thus Come Ones and the Buddhas of the past, World Honored Ones.

Therefore, Ananda, if cultivators of Chan samadhi do not cut off killing, they are like one who stops up his ears and calls out in a loud voice, expecting no one to hear him. It is to wish to hide what is completely evident.

Bodhisattvas and bhikshus who practice purity will not even step on grass in the pathway; even less will they pull it up with their hand. How can one with great compassion pick up the flesh and blood of living beings and proceed to eat his fill?

Bhikshus who do not wear silk, leather boots, furs, or down from this country, or consume milk, cream, or butter can truly transcend this world. When they have paid back their past debts, they will not have to re-enter the triple realm.

Why? It is because when one wears something taken from a living creature, one creates conditions with it, just as when people eat the hundred grains, their feet cannot leave the earth. Both physically and mentally one must avoid the bodies and the by-products of living beings, by neither wearing them nor eating them. I say that such people have true liberation.

What I have said here is the Buddha's teaching. Any explanation counter to it is the teaching of Papiyan.

avisitor
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:13 am

Scientist have create a meat substitute
Grown in the lab and not on the farm
Of course the taste is no where near real meat.
Veggie burgers have more flavor and texture.

So the question becomes, does eating meat that is lab grown okay?? Karma wise??

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Autumnday » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:15 am

desertwoodworker wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:31 pm
---

The Precepts: These Ways of a Buddha are the on-ramp to the BuddhaWay!

We can go from one "State" (samsara) to another/THE-other (original Nature). The first interstate! (highway). Autobahn?

--J.

:hatsoff:
precepts_10.jpg
One will not get too far down the highway without signs and guideposts. The precepts are the guide one needs to navigate. They are the roadmap for living

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:37 am

avisitor wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:13 am


So the question becomes, does eating meat that is lab grown okay?? Karma wise??
How is it made?

Scientists first go about collecting a muscle sample from an animal. Then the technicians collect stem cells from the tissue, multiplying them dramatically and allowing them to differentiate into primitive fibers that then bulk up to form muscle tissue.
Best to avoid it alltogether, yet since the three poisons prevail, it's a better "option" then the current mass slaughterhouse.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Autumnday » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:15 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:37 am
avisitor wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:13 am


So the question becomes, does eating meat that is lab-grown okay?? Karma wise??
How is it made?

Scientists first go about collecting a muscle sample from an animal. Then the technicians collect stem cells from the tissue, multiplying them dramatically and allowing them to differentiate into primitive fibers that then bulk up to form muscle tissue.
Best to avoid it all together, yet since the three poisons prevail, it's a better "option" then the current mass slaughterhouse.
the post discussion about Killing sent me on a quick search.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... rown-meat/
https://www.mosameat.com/technology/

The posts and ideas of others are among the road signs that we view daily. In the end, it is up to each one of us to study the travel guide before us and decide what road or path to travel. One may say or determine one is lost, but "getting lost" is one's own perception and a part of the intended travel. Maybe getting lost is not getting lost at all?

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:25 pm

If we carry the idea about killing animals to killing bacteria and virus
then what does one do when confronted with a decision to kill the bacteria and virus to protect humans?

If mosquitoes and ticks pass along dangerous disease then killing them would prevent human suffering
Would it be right in the light of the ten precepts?

If one cow gets mad cow disease then would killing it be the right thing to do?

When HIV or AIDS was first discovered and announced, I heard many say to gather all the infected and shoot them.
I thought the idea insane but it did a little sense to isolate the infected??

Now during this COVID-19 corona virus, the number of deaths rise
And people are still getting infected.

Sorry, the idea of "no killing" can weigh heavy at times

Question: Does passing the virus to someone who dies from it count as bad Karma??

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Autumnday » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:18 pm

avistor,
You have just pointed out why words and language can be dangerous. Words and language just creates more words and language and more thoughts. :113:

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:03 pm

Autumnday wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:18 pm
avistor,
You have just pointed out why words and language can be dangerous. Words and language just creates more words and language and more thoughts. :113:
Depending upon what your aim is, it can be a good thing or something which hinders efforts.
Either way, there it is.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:26 pm

The do not eat meat movement has seeded supremacy resulting in great consequence-

Fields are equally precious as a million cattle- When tilled to produce carrots and peas and broccoli, numberless lives are lost, lives no less precious than that of farm animals-

But the story being marketed omits the field creatures in the telling of their profitable, vegan saga -- we, we, we, all the way to their save the pigs, capitalist banks-

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:45 pm

Autumnday wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:18 pm
Words and language just creates more words and language and more thoughts. :113:
:namaste:

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:03 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:26 pm
Fields are equally precious as a million cattle- When tilled to produce carrots and peas and broccoli, numberless lives are lost, lives no less precious than that of farm animals-
Just a random slaughterhouse in Belgium, (video)

https://m.facebook.com/AnimalRightsNL/v ... ilter&_rdr

please note there is a difference. The lives lost in the field are not animals/animals we breed and put there with the intention of killing, please stop comparing the two and setting them in opposition, nothing can justify the horrors of animal farming. And for the last time, not eating meat does not mean we eat more grain or vegetables. Not even mentioning the intent and karmic consequences. Any further discussion (unless its setting up one against the other) can be in the "vegandharma" thread.

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by Nothing » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:25 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:03 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:26 pm
Fields are equally precious as a million cattle- When tilled to produce carrots and peas and broccoli, numberless lives are lost, lives no less precious than that of farm animals-
Just a random slaughterhouse in Belgium, (video)

https://m.facebook.com/AnimalRightsNL/v ... ilter&_rdr

please note there is a difference. The lives lost in the field are not animals/animals we breed and put there with the intention of killing, please stop comparing the two and setting them in opposition, nothing can justify the horrors of animal farming. And for the last time, not eating meat does not mean we eat more grain or vegetables. Not even mentioning the intent and karmic consequences. Any further discussion (unless its setting up one against the other) can be in the "vegandharma" thread.
:560:
“Here it is--right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it.”
― Huang Po

https://beingwithoutself.org/retreats/

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:29 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:25 pm
If we carry the idea about killing animals to killing bacteria and virus
then what does one do when confronted with a decision to kill the bacteria and virus to protect humans?

If mosquitoes and ticks pass along dangerous disease then killing them would prevent human suffering
Would it be right in the light of the ten precepts?

If one cow gets mad cow disease then would killing it be the right thing to do?

When HIV or AIDS was first discovered and announced, I heard many say to gather all the infected and shoot them.
I thought the idea insane but it did a little sense to isolate the infected??

Now during this COVID-19 corona virus, the number of deaths rise
And people are still getting infected.

Sorry, the idea of "no killing" can weigh heavy at times

Question: Does passing the virus to someone who dies from it count as bad Karma??
Nearly everything inherently intervenes and interacts-

Even when sitting awake indoors, or sleeping, we inhale dust mite fecal matter that carries bacteria- Outdoors, likely much more- In this human condition, it's impossible not to kill- Maybe the closest we can come to it is the offering of equal gratitude-

p22
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:01 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:03 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:26 pm
Fields are equally precious as a million cattle- When tilled to produce carrots and peas and broccoli, numberless lives are lost, lives no less precious than that of farm animals-
Just a random slaughterhouse in Belgium, (video)

https://m.facebook.com/AnimalRightsNL/v ... ilter&_rdr

please note there is a difference. The lives lost in the field are not animals/animals we breed and put there with the intention of killing, please stop comparing the two and setting them in opposition, nothing can justify the horrors of animal farming. And for the last time, not eating meat does not mean we eat more grain or vegetables. Not even mentioning the intent and karmic consequences. Any further discussion (unless its setting up one against the other) can be in the "vegandharma" thread.
The creatures tilled under in fields "end up dead" -- intentionally- Intentionally: killed- To produce vegetables-

"Dead" is "dead"- Dead isn't different-

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by avisitor » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:10 pm

p22 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:29 pm
Nearly everything inherently intervenes and interacts-

Even when sitting awake indoors, or sleeping, we inhale dust mite fecal matter that carries bacteria- Outdoors, likely much more- In this human condition, it's impossible not to kill- Maybe the closest we can come to it is the offering of equal gratitude-
Yeah, I think the most important part is the fore thought or intent while doing the action.

Planning on killing animals for human consumption is one thing
To plan killing animals to make profit is another thing

And pest companies?? Seriously, one can't live with insects that destroys the integrity of the house (termites)
Or with insects crawling all over the body. Disease and other things ...?
Bubonic plague was spread due to rats and fleas.

So, this precept of no killing has to have more guidelines rather than a general statement

p22
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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by p22 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:28 pm

avisitor wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:10 pm
p22 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:29 pm
Nearly everything inherently intervenes and interacts-

Even when sitting awake indoors, or sleeping, we inhale dust mite fecal matter that carries bacteria- Outdoors, likely much more- In this human condition, it's impossible not to kill- Maybe the closest we can come to it is the offering of equal gratitude-
Yeah, I think the most important part is the fore thought or intent while doing the action.

Planning on killing animals for human consumption is one thing
To plan killing animals to make profit is another thing

And pest companies?? Seriously, one can't live with insects that destroys the integrity of the house (termites)
Or with insects crawling all over the body. Disease and other things ...?
Bubonic plague was spread due to rats and fleas.

So, this precept of no killing has to have more guidelines rather than a general statement
I think Otzi is a beautiful, studied example of interconnectedness, of living and dying, of killing and bugs and human consumption, all wrapped up in the elements that preserved his ever so slowly decomposing remains-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi

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Re: Ten Precepts

Post by fuki » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:17 am

avisitor wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:10 pm
And pest companies?? Seriously, one can't live with insects that destroys the integrity of the house (termites)
Or with insects crawling all over the body. Disease and other things ...
Humans should use their intelligence so we dont create places for insects to breed instead of creating the conditions and the killing them afterwards, that is a wrong way of thinking to justify actions we ourself created. For instance we have ant "plagues" here, why because we destroyed forests and build a lot of roads and tiles in our cities/gardens, so the ants can migrate very fast into our cities searching for food (littering is also a human stupidity) we took away from them in the first place.

The general statement and the mahayana spirit is sufficient, as each case and situation is different. If you say pest companies are allright then the danger is thinking all killing of insects in our house is allright, collectively as a species we are raised with the idea pest companies are allright, only strengthening our karmic seeds of killing (and thus human war) in our storehouse consciousness. Always avoid killing when you can, you should know this, justifications with the intellect is dangerous. Pest companies are a pest.
Bubonic plague was spread due to rats and fleas.
Humans spread corona, german propaganda had something to say about Jews, in some eastern european countries, gypsies (romas) are seen as ppl who spread diseases. Be careful with this kind of (historical) thinking. In your daily life just avoid killing when you can, and no having some cockroaches in your kitchen does not justify calling a pest company, but thats something if ppl decide to do is their own decision/karma. Never ever teach or tell others its allright to kill cockroaches.

If in extreme situations ppl kill insects thats one thing, but that does not make it allright so ppl collectively think and strengthen their seeds of killing, thats why we should be mindful of our speech and thinking. The precepts are not about saying when killing is justified, it isn't. Certain causes and conditions which make killing "inevitable" should not lead to collective ideas that all such similair situations are justified. Peoples ideas about inter-being are at best intellectual and they use an even incorrect intellectual understanding of interbeing to justify their vasanas. Its dangerous to water and strengthen the karmic seeds of killing by saying "in this case its allright to call a pest company"

If you dont see that human wars keep happening because we think killing insects is allright one has no direct experience of interconnectedness/interbeing. So if you kill an insect in a certain situation you should not tell others its allright to do so.

What strikes me is how collectively we think a certain way "rats/flies/cockroaches" etc carry diseases, sure it happens but so does the human animal. Why do we think that way? Ive encountered gazillion of rats/mice and all kind of so called "pests" in my life, not once did I got a disease from them. Reminds me of how ppl thought of gay people and aids in the 80's, everyday I have flies in my house as it is summer, they walk over me, sit on my nose during zazen, walk over my plates and coffee cup and not once have I become sick, not all flies spread diseases, and yet as a child I was taught they are dirty and carry diseases, we are taught to think a certain way and its dangerous. Ofcourse good hygiene is important but generally thinking of species in a certain way is a big karmic mess. It makes ppl kill and strengthen the karmic seeds of killing, it may be flies now but karma doesnt discriminate like that, even the word "pest" is problamatic, it strengthens aversion and hatred. Aversion=aversion no matter the species, ppl try to tackle racism while feeling aversion for cockroaches and other species continues, karma is like the action of the wind, it does not discriminate. So teach ppl hygiene instead of aversion. Yes all beings can spread diseases, humans too, one day aliens might call pest control for humans lol

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