personal/meditation experience(s)

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michaeljc
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by michaeljc » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:24 am

Hi Avi

I have always been interested in the significant difference in how Zazen affects different people.
Therefore, please take the following as being from one perspective only.

I suggest:

Buy yourself a kitchen timer

Set yourself a basic time to sit to. IMO (and from what we see from others) this should not be less than 40 minutes

On occasions set it at 1 hr

Then – just sit. We all need to build a foundation based simply on posture and time. Forget methods. You are worrying about “doing it wrong”. As long as we have posture there is no wrong. Check your posture and adjust periodically

If Zazen works for you as it does for me thoughts will stop naturally, and you may well find yourself following breath naturally after a time
The one hr sits are important as it feels so long when we start that we forget time. Sit as though you are to be there for ever

A secret: I remember at one sesshin thinking through a complex engineering design as I sat knowing that given time Zaazen would take over and still the thinking

I do use methods but only sparingly and only near the end of a sit. I also have my own methods. As for being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. I simply don’t care.

Let the thinking flow. Its all part of the process

Just my perspective

Cheers

M

PS: I once had a post deleted on ZFI for suggesting that almost all of the methods and actions (e.g. bowing, gassho, following breath) in Zen originated as manifestations of practice. I am still of that view. Even koans: who has not experienced those deeply disturbing events that appear to have no answer. Immersing into the feeling they generate can be very powerful practice IME

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fuki
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by fuki » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:06 pm

Posts deleted on zfi was mostly due to political motivations, mostly the moderators there weren't aware of that since it's rare to find ppl who actually see why they are inclined to think/act/perceive a certain way. Deleting comments is rarely of service.

avisitor
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by avisitor » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:53 am

michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:24 am
I have always been interested in the significant difference in how Zazen affects different people.
Me, not so much. I figure people will experience whatever they need to.
But, in the very end, it should be the same.
Have noted, awakening is like the elephant in a room of blind men.
Each awakening will show only a portion of the elephant.
michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:24 am
Therefore, please take the following as being from one perspective only.
I suggest:
Buy yourself a kitchen timer
Set yourself a basic time to sit to. IMO (and from what we see from others) this should not be less than 40 minutes
On occasions set it at 1 hr
Then – just sit. We all need to build a foundation based simply on posture and time. Forget methods. You are worrying about “doing it wrong”. As long as we have posture there is no wrong. Check your posture and adjust periodically
Not worried about doing it wrong. It is all part of the journey.
However, when I hear of beginners getting advice that it is ok to just let the mind run free,
It makes me wonder what difference is there between that and day dreaming.
So, people, who do Shikantaza before they are ready, simply sit around day dreaming.
I could do that for hours if it weren't for the pain in my legs.
But, when I sit, the pain in the legs ... they are let go ... change their energy or frequency
The mind and concentration become the focus of attention
michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:24 am
If Zazen works for you as it does for me thoughts will stop naturally, and you may well find yourself following breath naturally after a time
The one hr sits are important as it feels so long when we start that we forget time. Sit as though you are to be there for ever
Not quite the same.
I sense my self as present and the internal voice will come to the front
If not in voice then in intentions
This is why I believe that Koans are one of the fastest way to awakening
It brings the mind to stop. Not able to answer the question. Not accepting just any answer.
It can't move forward. So, attention, intention, focus, concentration, all become a momentum or force.
Zen masters call this doubt. This kind of task is more suited for thinkers.
Anyway, need a teacher before that happens.
So, I continue using the watching of breath "IN" and "OUT".
Whenever the thoughts just continue to flow, I know it is time to stop.
It means I do not have the energy to concentrate or my posture is bad.

I have no wish to become a monk or to find myself or to awaken
Figure if the time is right then it will happen
If not then another round for those who need it
michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:24 am
A secret: I remember at one sesshin thinking through a complex engineering design as I sat knowing that given time Zaazen would take over and still the thinking
I do use methods but only sparingly and only near the end of a sit. I also have my own methods. As for being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. I simply don’t care.
Let the thinking flow. Its all part of the process
Just my perspective
My perspective is that just sitting bring the mind to the point where almost anything can bring it to stillness
And, this mind is dropped. No-mind. What is experienced is only a glimpse of the bigger picture.
(each person has their own thing to work through)
But, if one uses this mind to try to drop this mind to bring this mind to stillness then it will not work.
michaeljc wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:24 am
PS: I once had a post deleted on ZFI for suggesting that almost all of the methods and actions (e.g. bowing, gassho, following breath) in Zen originated as manifestations of practice. I am still of that view. Even koans: who has not experienced those deeply disturbing events that appear to have no answer. Immersing into the feeling they generate can be very powerful practice IME
Agreed. It all originates from the practice.

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desertwoodworker
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by desertwoodworker » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:36 pm

Dear Michael.
michaeljc wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:47 am
According to Meido a true awakening can be a hindrance and that this is only the beginning after which the real work starts

I trust this man
Better to awaken at least once, unequivocally, and have your teacher test and confirm it, than never to do so or to have done so. This is a way -- the way -- to realize in no uncertain terms that the Buddha and our Ch'an and Zen ancestors were not lying to us, nor even speaking figuratively! This is real. And comes mostly through changes brought about in the body. There is no "mind". Thank heaven! That bit has all been illusion and delusion.

This is my experience, not opinion.

"Your mileage may vary", says our USA automobile testing agency (I think), the EPA. Or, maybe manufacturers say that.

Strong practice!, All,

--Joe

michaeljc
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by michaeljc » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:51 am

And what are others's experience Joe?

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desertwoodworker
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:58 am

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:51 am
And what are others's experience Joe?
Have a look at the Ch'an and Zen literature! If it's not easy or safe (in Covid times) to interview our contemporary zen practitioner peers.

Others' experience is for others to inform us on.

:namaste:

Many blessings, keep safe,

--Joe

ps our Summer thunderstorm monsoon in the desert is just about to start ... tomorrow! Must be sure the roof is fully patched. ;-)

michaeljc
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by michaeljc » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:05 am

Joe - I quoted Meido. Have it out with him :hatsoff:

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desertwoodworker
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by desertwoodworker » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:18 am

Meido's Jake with me.

By all means, recall that the zen literature is replete with awakening stories, and stories of life after awakening.

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fuki
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by fuki » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:57 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:51 am
And what are others's experience Joe?
Fukasetsu kitty's experience this morning;
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... &__tn__=-R
6976362361_5843890c0c_b.jpg
6976362361_5843890c0c_b.jpg (96.03 KiB) Viewed 1851 times

p22
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by p22 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:53 pm

Funny video 😊

avisitor
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by avisitor » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:51 pm

When settled in, the breath does slow down by itself.
I am not using breath as a tool to stop thoughts of control the attention.
Just the brain usage goes down and breathing reflects such.

Sometimes, I will be looking through my left eye
Other times I notice I am looking through my right eye.
Yes, eyes are closed but there is still some ambient light in the room.
Most of the time, I do not notice these things
When concentration is good, I have less outside influence
When it is terrible, my attention seems to travel inside of my head and images come up.

Some have said to use no method.
Thought about that.
No method is just another method
Whatever is done is one method or another
Just that one chooses to call it no method doesn't make it so.
So, all a method. Some better than others??

So, my method is following breath in and out
Focus at the nostrils and at the belly
Eyes behind the eyelids, not in the mind
When in the mind, images appear
Thoughts come and go.
No forcing But trying to hold attention on this moment.

My phone has a timer function.
When it vibrates, time is up.
The state my mind is in after sitting, does not simply come out so quickly.
Then, the waters of the world come over me.
Covers my eyes and it is that, that I see.
Sometimes I know what it is, like being sleepy
Other times, don't know what happened, where did the time go?

I guess maybe I am just crazy. Not doing anything right.
Does not matter. Just part of the journey.
And this too shall change
:112:

p22
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by p22 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:22 pm

Not a meditation experience .. but an illusion ..

Its happened a few times while dropping off to sleep, I will be focused on whats in front of me when I doze off and go to sleep, then shortly there after I begin to wake, but before fully awake see in my mind what I was staring at when I fell asleep, with my eyed closed, and then when I open them I see the same thing I saw with them closed .. I suppose I didnt move much from when I dozed and when I woke ..

Freaky .. 😊

avisitor
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by avisitor » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:56 am

p22 wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:22 pm
Not a meditation experience .. but an illusion ..

Its happened a few times while dropping off to sleep, I will be focused on whats in front of me when I doze off and go to sleep, then shortly there after I begin to wake, but before fully awake see in my mind what I was staring at when I fell asleep, with my eyed closed, and then when I open them I see the same thing I saw with them closed .. I suppose I didnt move much from when I dozed and when I woke ..

Freaky .. 😊
Not sure but I think they call that persistence of memory
Like when exposed to a camera flash
The flash stays for a short time and can be seen when blinking the eyelids

p22
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by p22 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:33 pm

Yes, Ive had that happen- I imagine what occured is that or similar-

avisitor
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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by avisitor » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:42 am

Still freaky :lol:

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Re: personal/meditation experience(s)

Post by avisitor » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:19 am

Letting go of thoughts and concentrated attention
One can see the space between thoughts
Maybe even break the persistence of conscious mind

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