In another recent thread in the Soto Zen section, a Rinzai priest and other non-Soto practitioners were allowed to describe as mistaken standard Soto Zen interpretations of Soto Zen practice and doctrine, and rebuttals by a Soto Zen teacher were deleted.
justmeagain: Hi, its been a while.
I have developed a fear, an non-descript anxiety when practising Shikantaza.
Because I feel like I can slip into it a little too easy of late. I sit and I am there....with nowhere else to go and its worrying. I have developed a mistrust of what others might perceive as a success and progression. How can I remove this odd obstacle.
kusulu: How long has this been going on? If it goes more than a few times maybe it is "something" but if it just goes away it's probably "nothing" In Soto, I'm not sure that there is an iron-clad rule against feeling "success" or "progression" - Dogen stresses that zazen itself is "enlightenment" but surely that's a wrong translation. I'd like to see a more literal translation of that.
Anders: I'm afraid Greg may have jumped the gun on this one. Professior Hee-Jin Kim discusses his choice of "enlightenment" as his preference in Dogen on Meditation and Thinking: A Reflection on His View of Zen...
Rinzai Priest Meido Moore: I should say that i'm not going primarily by Gregory here...just using his article as a reference. Primarily I'm going by the words of my native Japanese Zen teacher, who agrees that "practice is enlightenment" is an inaccurate and needlessly confusing translation.
I have no problem with "practice and its confirmation are one thing" (shusho ichinyo), since to my mind shikantaza is not in fact usefully viewed primarily as a meditation "method" (even though we commonly discuss it as such), but rather as embodied fruition. In other words, it is a confirmation of what Zen practice after awakening entails, and takes as its basis.
Zafutales wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:54 pm
Hongzhi and Dogen = .....just sit no analysis required, anything other than this is chasing your own shadow
Tsongkhapa and Nargajuna = ....a stone can just sit and not think....we must use our conceptual minds to great use
Just sitting is a matter of not grasping at thoughts, and that itself is based on the understanding that clinging to concepts is the basis of samsara.
Analysis is used to assist one letting go of thoughts and thus free one from clinging to concepts.
They are not so different, merely various approaches to match the needs of various beings.
Johnny Dangerous: You can't get free of illusion through effort and striving, this is as true in Zen as in Dzogchen ...
Myoan: With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen
Reciting the nembutsu and believing in birth in the Pure Land naturally give rise to the Three Minds and the Four Modes of Practice. -- Master Hōnen
Kusulu: The problem for me is the technical and prior consented-to meaning of "enlightenment". Its a borrow word from western philosophy and overlays a logical system that Buddhism does not conform to. Technically speaking, we aren't interested in "enlightenment", but in bringing samadhi off the zazen/zafu and out into the zazen of all fields of activity. Samadhi is not just quiet mind still body, it is the radiant mind fully alive an awakened, and understood, and lived. Dogen is coming from a place that deconstructs time and space, speaking from his experience of zazen. It's not meant to comfort us in any sense, nor is it easy. I agree, it needs unpacking for the average (below average, in my history) person to utilize.
Posts and rebuttals by actual Soto practitioners were deleted.