A hypothesis

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michaeljc
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by michaeljc » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:57 am

Avisitor wrote:
You present the hypothesis only because you have a belief in it
How the hell would you know about what I believe in?

I believe that there is an interesting similarity between reported 'awakenings' and some forms of seizure which suggests that ALL Zen mind-states are only this: mind-states generated by, in particular, by Zazen

THAT is ALL!

p22
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by p22 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:53 pm

avisitor wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:21 pm
p22 wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:18 am
How much of itself does the elephant see?
And this is where metaphors and similes and comparisons break down
Carrying things to the smallest detail
Until there is nothing: open heart, open mind, open hands-

And seizures! 😊

avisitor
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by avisitor » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:23 pm

michaeljc wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:57 am
Avisitor wrote:
You present the hypothesis only because you have a belief in it
How the hell would you know about what I believe in?
How the hell would one know if you told a lie?
And yet, the FBI and CIA train their agents to do this.
If there was no belief in it and no interest then you would not even bother to present it.
When you sit in a boat and go through water, do you cause a wake behind you?
Or is the wake causing you to move through the water?
Cause and effect??
michaeljc wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:57 am
I believe that there is an interesting similarity between reported 'awakenings' and some forms of seizure which suggests that ALL Zen mind-states are only this: mind-states generated by, in particular, by Zazen

THAT is ALL!
Why do you present such a "Hypothesis"???
Due to what happened to your dear friend and the ensuing experiences you had, along with such gathering of information.

If I presented this hypothesis then maybe there would be no belief in it.
But, looking from whence it came ....

Enough of this. Whatever ... have it your way.

avisitor
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by avisitor » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:46 pm

p22 wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:53 pm
Until there is nothing: open heart, open mind, open hands-

And seizures! 😊
Seizures have a connotation of being something bad
Uncontrolled and destructive, have seen its effects
When holding the person, they are lost in the shakes, bladder control and such lost
Having to put a stick inside the person's mouth to prevent choking

Sitting on the cushion and experiencing a phenomena really isn't a seizure
Although some could be construed as such if they start pissing all over the place

But, yes, open heart, open mind and open hands

p22
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by p22 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:56 pm

avisitor wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:46 pm
p22 wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:53 pm
Until there is nothing: open heart, open mind, open hands-

And seizures! 😊
Seizures have a connotation of being something bad
Uncontrolled and destructive, have seen its effects
When holding the person, they are lost in the shakes, bladder control and such lost
Having to put a stick inside the person's mouth to prevent choking

Sitting on the cushion and experiencing a phenomena really isn't a seizure
Although some could be construed as such if they start pissing all over the place

But, yes, open heart, open mind and open hands
Yes, that is your (possibly) actual experience with another's seizure- But not all seizures are equal, some can go totally unnoticed even by the individual experiencing the seizure because they are not violent- They can present as staring out to space or daydreaming, which is how people look when seated- So perhaps when seated, some people experience a seizure like state? Perhaps it's possible- But I don't know-

With very limited information we can present simple theories- Also with limited information come to simple conclusions- Their correctness isn't relevent, only correct in that they were presented-

I believe that you believe that Michael believes- I don't believe that Michael believes his theory- I believe he has done some research, presented some evidence but didn't provide proof -- with the exception of his suggested evidenced based statement regarding superiority- Even with the teeniest, tiniest, most humble of shovels anyone could unearth and provide evidence and proof of that- 😊

p22
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by p22 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:04 am

This conversation reminds me of these 2 books:


Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink:_ ... t_Thinking


Talking to Strangers: What We Should Know about the People We Don't Know

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_to_Strangers


Both by Malcolm Gladwell

Larry
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by Larry » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:23 am

He has such a positive name πŸ™‚

Or so I believe :D

p22
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by p22 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:31 pm

Yes, he has a happy name -- I believe .. 😊

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fuki
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by fuki » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:17 am

michaeljc wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:57 am

I believe that there is an interesting similarity between reported 'awakenings' and some forms of seizure...
Ofcourse, It's evident that 99% of the "prophets" in human history where probably "fruit cakes"

What I'm missing is how you have any evidence of any forum members here having abnormal neurological thingies due to their practise.
My silly neuro-hopping is mostly when there's a lack of "practise" or when I'm deluded practise/zazen has anything to do with a "mind"

Anyway's its a treat.
happy halloween.

michaeljc
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by michaeljc » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:35 am

Fuki wrote
What I'm missing is how you have any evidence of any forum members here having abnormal neurological thingies due to their practise.
Of course you are missing it as I never claimed it (evidence)
A scientific hypothesis is the initial building block in the scientific method. Many describe it as an "educated guess," based on prior knowledge and observation. ... A hypothesis also includes an explanation of why the guess may be correct, according to National Science Teachers Association.
My explanation as to why the educated guess may be correct is through my intensive research into seizures and my experience in Zen practice. Other's here must do the same to get the gist. There are many forms involving all of the human emotions. Most do not involve convulsions

Apparently most people will be subject to a seizure some time in their life

cheers

m

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fuki
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by fuki » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:12 am

I've had similar hypothesis playing out in my upper fun zone through the years, but I figured building entire wind parks to fuel virtual data centers never seems to end, and as years fly by I'm getting lazier and less thirsty to figure stuff out or "care" about it. Though kudos to all (non-harm-non-profit) scientists.


Just for fun
[SPOILER]
Knowledge, what is to be known, and the knower β€” these three do not exist in reality. I am the spotless reality in which they appear because of ignorance. 2.15

I am pure awareness though through ignorance I have imagined myself to have additional attributes. By continually reflecting like this, my dwelling place is in the Unimagined. 2.17
~Ashta

michaeljc
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by michaeljc » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:05 am

What is it about you Dutch and windmills?

:103:

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fuki
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by fuki » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:45 am

:lol:

Not much dutch about it these days.
The Swedish build them and microsoft owns the windparks, we are a tax haven for foreign companies under the disguise of "green energy" local majors trick ppl to approve wind parks which ofcourse aren't used to tackle climate change or benefit the town people, but to profit the filthy rich. Same old same old.

Larry
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by Larry » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:31 pm

fuki wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:45 am
the filthy rich
I did miss the politics :lol:

At this pivotal moment in world history, let us all offer Unconditional Love to the President of the USA :lol:

And ask ourselves....What would Ikkyu do? :lol:

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fuki
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by fuki » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:21 pm

Larry wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:31 pm
And ask ourselves....What would Ikkyu do? :lol:
:lol:
I have a hunch...
I’ll just keep my mouth shut
And rely on love play all the day long.
Unconditional love...hmm, hypothetically speaking, what's in it for me? :lol:

Larry
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by Larry » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:45 pm

:lol:
fuki wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:21 pm
I have a hunch...
I’ve heard that’s one of the side effects :lol:

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desertwoodworker
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by desertwoodworker » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:46 pm

Michael, I think the hypothesis is crap -- just so -- and I'm surprised to see that you propound such unexamined nonsense.

I know -- I thought -- that you had practiced, ...and with such good people as my dear late friend John (Daido) Loori, Roshi.

Granted, perhaps neither you, nor many others on any particular sesshin, may have woken up, but that does not mean that the reason was that you were not susceptible nor liable to experience epileptic states.

Our way is yoga, not pathology.

Awakening lasts a long time, if it's well prepared-for, via correct practice(s). A "seizure" is some short-lived thing of an unhealthy nervous system.

There's nothing in your hypothesis that concords with experienced and documented reality, and I'd suggest you start over in considering Practice, Purification(s), and Awakening. It's not too soon! I'm the only one getting younger, here.

With all best regards!, as you know!,

--Joe

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jundocohen
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by jundocohen » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:57 am

desertwoodworker wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:46 pm
Michael, I think the hypothesis is crap -- just so -- and I'm surprised to see that you propound such unexamined nonsense.

I know -- I thought -- that you had practiced, ...and with such good people as my dear late friend John (Daido) Loori, Roshi.

Granted, perhaps neither you, nor many others on any particular sesshin, may have woken up, but that does not mean that the reason was that you were not susceptible nor liable to experience epileptic states.

Our way is yoga, not pathology.

Awakening lasts a long time, if it's well prepared-for, via correct practice(s). A "seizure" is some short-lived thing of an unhealthy nervous system.

There's nothing in your hypothesis that concords with experienced and documented reality, and I'd suggest you start over in considering Practice, Purification(s), and Awakening. It's not too soon! I'm the only one getting younger, here.

With all best regards!, as you know!,

--Joe
Joe. the lasting experience that you describe from time to time, do you entertain any possibility that ... maybe, just maybe ... there was a physiological or medical basis to it? Some kind of very positive dissociative state, with actual beneficial and pleasant effect (not all these events are always experienced as negative or cause disfunction). I am not saying that such was the case, but can be entertain it as a possibility?
I will say again, for 4th or 5th time, there were no thoughts. I was able to function, do advanced mathematics, build parts of our new radio telescope, and even be hired by another research group to build some ground-support equipment for their sounding-rocket campaign at White Sands, New Mexico. I took on too much new stuff, though people could see I could accomplish it. After 2 1/2 months, the awakened state eroded.
viewtopic.php?p=16494#p16494
Gassho, J

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desertwoodworker
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by desertwoodworker » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:41 am

Dear Jundo Roshi,

Howdy.

There was certainly a physiological basis to it, thanks. It's based on our yoga, which is all-intensive.

The changed physiology was what happened before the samadhi states could come on strongly, to enable their free entrance and persistence, and mutation; and then, when samadhi broke up suddenly in front of my open eyes, and everything stopped, this condition continued for 2 1/2 months, the first time.

Nothing special; it's just what has happened to so many other Zen and Ch'an folk over recorded time.

Glad to be aboard. I'm honored!, and mucho-grateful, to say the least. I've had excellent teaching and sangha support and connection.

I'm in a lesser condition now. But all that means is that ...I am not practicing enuf. Earlier, it "took" at least 3-hours sitting per day to maintain the samadhi condition, once it was earlier established. And, plus, for me/us, in Master Sheng Yen's sangha, the proper physical practices as well, are enabling! (which I have taught to others since 1980).

Thanks for chiming-in, Roshi. Blessings,

--Joe

jundocohen wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:57 am
Joe. the lasting experience that you describe from time to time, do you entertain any possibility that ... maybe, just maybe ... there was a physiological or medical basis to it? Some kind of very positive dissociative state, with actual beneficial and pleasant effect (not all these events are always experienced as negative or cause disfunction). I am not saying that such was the case, but can be entertain it as a possibility?
I will say again, for 4th or 5th time, there were no thoughts. I was able to function, do advanced mathematics, build parts of our new radio telescope, and even be hired by another research group to build some ground-support equipment for their sounding-rocket campaign at White Sands, New Mexico. I took on too much new stuff, though people could see I could accomplish it. After 2 1/2 months, the awakened state eroded.
viewtopic.php?p=16494#p16494
Gassho, J

michaeljc
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Re: A hypothesis

Post by michaeljc » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:33 am

I knew that there would be a prickly response (stink) sooner or later - and I expected to come from Joe - and others I have got to know a little through forums, if they were here. The hypothesis completely undermines their self-defined rank near the top of the "spiritual ladder" and their sense of accomplishment. Therefore, it cannot possibly contain any truth, especially when it is coming from someone "on the bottom of the ladder"

Just compare how Joe writes to me and then to Jundo. The Zen cast system at work, as always. I rest my case and don't care. Honestly I don't

The evidence I would need would best come from EEG but this would be a massive undertaking beyond the resolve of most I would expect

So, it remains a hypothesis. I am more than comfortable with this

I have never claimed that is anything else

m

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