Buddhist Forums in General

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Great Sage EofH
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Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 pm

ZFI, Treeleaf, Dharmawheel, Dhammawheel, Dhammawheel Engaged, Zen Space, Stack Exchange, to name a few....

I'm remembering how when my Dad died last year, people were floundering, lost, unable to make decisions based on solid thinking, over-reacting, acting out, getting stressed out and quarrelsome, and other forms of insanity. Finally I realized that this stuff is not my problem to try to manage. I realized I had to let others handle their own insanity.

One thing that seems to be a trigger for me is the typical example of someone giving really bad advice thats not based on commonly accessible texts or teaching, for example teaching which should be between them and their teacher, that their teacher has somehow construed as universally accepted teachings, but in fact, are not. I'm okay with people saying we all have different teachings from out teachers, but when they get this one weird idea from their teacher (or from elsewhere, such as private revelation) and become very self-righteous about how ALL BUDDHISM teaches this which leads to YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM, OR YOU'D KNOW THIS. Excuse me, but if they embrace an idiosyncratic teaching, (and teachers invariably introduce these, sometimes for very good reasons) it is incumbent upon THEM to understand that they are the one in the minority, and not to assume that others have intrinsic knowing of their personal quirky teaching. It is just another form of insanity to assume others should be in the know. And guess what?

I'm going to let them give out crappy advice and steer people wrong, because I'm not here to manage their insanity for them. Sorry about that. So, if people think they can spout whatever they want and somehow the group will set it to right, they are foolish. They need to read the TOS and Rules about Right Speech.

Another thing i notice is the increasing infiltration of purely Theravada ideas into peoples thinking, that have no basis in the suttas. All South Asia religions invariably collapse back into legalism, rules and regulations, and purely negative outlooks over time. I feel the same way about this. They are on their own. Don't come to me when things go wrong.

:namaste:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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clyde
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by clyde » Fri May 03, 2019 4:37 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 pm
Another thing i notice is the increasing infiltration of purely Theravada ideas into peoples thinking, that have no basis in the suttas.
Can you give an example?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Larry
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Larry » Fri May 03, 2019 4:59 pm

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 pm
I'm not here to manage their insanity for them.
There's very little any of us can manage.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri May 03, 2019 5:04 pm

clyde wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:37 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 pm
Another thing i notice is the increasing infiltration of purely Theravada ideas into peoples thinking, that have no basis in the suttas.
Can you give an example?
The truth is very painful - I know quite a few revolutionaries in Theravada trying to make things better - but this article is the best of it's kind:

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Mason » Fri May 03, 2019 5:17 pm

I'm not exactly sure what this thread is about, but it does make me think. Zen forums seem to oscillate between two options: the attempt to communicate "Zen insight" over the internet, which is rather perilous (I know I've been guilty of this one, but am trying to reform); or, on the contrary, endlessly repeating the necessity of having a good teacher and the relative uselessness of online Zen groups.

I believe there is a third option though. Zen is a form of Buddhism. While Zen may be a transmission independent of words and letters, Buddhism more generally is not. As far as I know, Zen is a particular way of learning and teaching Buddhism which is appropriate for certain situations - in particular, a close relationship with a Zen Buddhist teacher.

Buddhism generally, though, can definitely be discussed in an online environment using words and letters and investigating scriptures. Furthermore, this intellectual accumulation of knowledge can be helpful or even crucial for certain practitioners. Most teachers of Zen or Ch'an that I know about seem to encourage this kind of study. It provides a good foundation and worldview for strong practice. I recall the days of long, insightful conversations between Gregory Wonderwheel, Ted Biringer, Ven. Huifeng, and others. I think America has a culture of anti-intellectualism which can seem similar to the Zen spirit of direct experience. But, in my view, anti-intellectualism has very deep pitfalls and is not something to praise.

I hope this will have some relevance to the OP.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Larry
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Larry » Fri May 03, 2019 5:32 pm

Mason wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:17 pm
I recall the days of long, insightful conversations between Gregory Wonderwheel, Ted Biringer, Ven. Huifeng, and others.
Yes, it was good stuff. And Meido, Guo Gu & Jundo were very good value in more recent times. But I'd better not go there :)

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri May 03, 2019 11:15 pm

Thanks Mason! That helps. Sorry if my post was a bit rambling.

I think what i was trying to get at is, just because i use these forums as a learning tool, i don't feel like i want to be held responsible for the shortcomings, such as stupid questions and stupid answers - not anymore! I've got enough of my own stupidity and i can't be arsed with others'.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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[james]
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by [james] » Sat May 04, 2019 12:08 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:15 pm
I think what i was trying to get at is, just because i use these forums as a learning tool, i don't feel like i want to be held responsible for the shortcomings, such as stupid questions and stupid answers - not anymore! I've got enough of my own stupidity and i can't be arsed with others'.
I’m unable to see what you are getting at here.

How have you been held responsible, in the near or distant past, that you no longer wish to so be burdened? Or, more to the point perhaps, since it is unlikely that you have in fact been held responsible, why do you feel this unwelcomed sense of responsibility?

As you do, we all probably have enough, and often more than enough, of our own stupidity. What benefit can arise from any one of us saying that I can’t be bothered with the stupidity of others ... there’s no avoiding it.

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sat May 04, 2019 4:01 am

[james] wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:08 am
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:15 pm
I think what i was trying to get at is, just because i use these forums as a learning tool, i don't feel like i want to be held responsible for the shortcomings, such as stupid questions and stupid answers - not anymore! I've got enough of my own stupidity and i can't be arsed with others'.
I’m unable to see what you are getting at here.

How have you been held responsible, in the near or distant past, that you no longer wish to so be burdened? Or, more to the point perhaps, since it is unlikely that you have in fact been held responsible, why do you feel this unwelcomed sense of responsibility?

As you do, we all probably have enough, and often more than enough, of our own stupidity. What benefit can arise from any one of us saying that I can’t be bothered with the stupidity of others ... there’s no avoiding it.
0_o

dammit james youre right
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by clyde » Sat May 04, 2019 4:58 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:04 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:37 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 pm
Another thing i notice is the increasing infiltration of purely Theravada ideas into peoples thinking, that have no basis in the suttas.
Can you give an example?
The truth is very painful - I know quite a few revolutionaries in Theravada trying to make things better - but this article is the best of it's kind:

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf
It may be a short book, but it’s dense and a long answer to my question.

I started reading it and this sentence, in the Preface, stuck me:
Now I follow the Buddha’s teachings to the best of my understanding and to the best of my ability.
Duh! That’s what a Buddhist does.

But the writing is too dry for me. I tried skimming, but even that didn’t work.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Larry » Sat May 04, 2019 7:35 am

Hope Eric doesn't feel too responsible for your boredom :D

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by fuki » Sat May 04, 2019 12:03 pm

To me a "Buddhist" forum just is a forum, where due to the word "Zen Buddhism" you at least know you'll meet people with certain interests or practises or angle of visions, but the "Buddhism" part isn't even that interesting eventhough ofcourse it will come up in conversation, and thus a forum can be a stimuli/inspiration. The whole idea of that there's something to learn or to understand is not my cup of tea, if it happens it happens, but most of the time forums are just back and forth about who's right or wrong, who's the more experienced teacher or student or what's so called "true Buddhism"

Throughout the years there were some wonderful moments on forums leading to long friendships on and off forums, and those moments were never really while discussing Buddhist material, it reminds me of something Byron Katie said.
The simple joy of a forum, is it so hard?
[SPOILER]
It's like falling in love with your self. There's nothing to do, no one to be, no responsibility, no meaning, no suffering, no death. You no longer believe yourself into a separate, distant polarity, where you're identified as a tiny speck making grandiose efforts to prove that something is true.

Realizing that you've never left the original oneness means that you were never born and you can never die.

What suppleness this realization allows! You're immune to anything the mind would superimpose onto reality: any disappointment or sorrow. If I lose all my money, good.
If I get cancer, good. If my husband leaves me, good. If my husband stays, that’s good too.

Who wouldn’t always say yes to reality if that’s what you’re in love with? What can happen that I wouldn’t welcome with all my heart?

- Byron Katie, ‘A Thousand Names for Joy’.
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Spike » Sat May 04, 2019 12:18 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:03 pm
it reminds me of something Byron Katie said.

"It's like falling in love with your self . . .

Realizing that you've never left the original oneness means that you were never born and you can never die.

What suppleness this realization allows! You're immune to anything the mind would superimpose onto reality: any disappointment or sorrow. If I lose all my money, good.
If I get cancer, good . . "
Well, but maybe, not so much.

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by fuki » Sat May 04, 2019 12:25 pm

Spike wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:18 pm

Well, but maybe, not so much.
I thought of you when I posted that Spike, had a feeling you would respond, I think you can view it in the context of what she is pointing to, no one welcomes or says it's good to get cancer nor this...
[SPOILER]
58886964_2717228191639051_3951835387990638592_n.jpg
58886964_2717228191639051_3951835387990638592_n.jpg (56.24 KiB) Viewed 647 times
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Spike » Sat May 04, 2019 1:22 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:03 pm
What can happen that I wouldn’t welcome with all my heart?

- Byron Katie, ‘A Thousand Names for Joy’.
Well, what about 619M animals killed every five days? The implication seems to be nothing is unwelcome.

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Spike » Sat May 04, 2019 1:40 pm

BK from wiki:

"I discovered that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, but that when I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. I found that suffering is optional. I found a joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment."

Of course in Buddhism, suffering in the world is not recognized as optional. For me it is part of being fully alive, and recognizing my own shortcomings and frailties.

(Groucho conscience would add: "Yeah, and everybody else's, too!", then flick the cigar).

Atta sarana
Anana sarana

To me, that includes the full package, thoughts included.

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by fuki » Sat May 04, 2019 2:31 pm

I don't care what happens Spike, at the same time I do care about the suffering of 'others'. Hence welcoming with all one's heart does not mean inviting or rejecting anything, it just for me means whatever happens cannot touch the realization and joy of one's true nature and at the same time this transformative experience is embodied in daily life where one clearly differentiates with what is good and evil or welcoming and unwelcoming in our relations and puts in effort to make a difference. I have a flue at the moment, it's good and I "welcome" it, I don't wish it away nor does it have any effect on my natural state or joy. It's always interesting, when I lay in the hospital my mother suffered because of "her son in pain" while I was as happy as could be, no one understood my eyes were glowing with bliss, and I could give no words that would make them understand. My point was it's really not necessary to split a forum with greed, envy, hatred, ignorance and emotional self-contraction, it's optional.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sat May 04, 2019 2:48 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 4:58 am
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:04 pm
clyde wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:37 pm
Great Sage EofH wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 pm
Another thing i notice is the increasing infiltration of purely Theravada ideas into peoples thinking, that have no basis in the suttas.
Can you give an example?
The truth is very painful - I know quite a few revolutionaries in Theravada trying to make things better - but this article is the best of it's kind:

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf
It may be a short book, but it’s dense and a long answer to my question.

I started reading it and this sentence, in the Preface, stuck me:
Now I follow the Buddha’s teachings to the best of my understanding and to the best of my ability.
Duh! That’s what a Buddhist does.

But the writing is too dry for me. I tried skimming, but even that didn’t work.
I couldn't put it down, it was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Now I understand why certain people are so keen to export Buddhism to the west, because it is merely conventional, decadent, and falling into decay in the East. What was the question again? Oh i think Ajahn Chah was pure genius, a rare enlightened man. Meditation had fully died out as a practice in Theravada for many centuries. It was recreated from Buddhaghosa's writings, odd because he's not a Theravadan, but also from the sutta. People like Ajahn Brahm are making a huge difference in setting things right, he is branded a heretic because he insisted on ordaining women. I support his efforts, at least with my "vote" LOL! He also points to Goenka, who I like, and Insight Meditation Society, which i have a hard time warming up to because its kinda touchy-feelie. I mean, guys like us prefer Zen because it's not too touchy-feelie, right? He also likes Bhante Gunaratana, who lives not far from me. Still that tendency towards Sutta fundamentalism, but reading this helped me to understand that Theravada is mostly a oppressive legalistic system based on the Vinaya, not the Suttas, and people trying to make things better use the Sutta to build their case. I get that now. Hinduism in India is in the same status too, it's mostly an oppressive system of legalism. Today it's an insult to call someone a Brahman. SAD!
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by Spike » Sat May 04, 2019 9:54 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 2:31 pm
I have a flue at the moment, it's good and I "welcome" it, I don't wish it away nor does it have any effect on my natural state or joy.
Best wishes for your comfort, and for recovery from the flu. If you don't object, I will wish it away on your behalf.

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Re: Buddhist Forums in General

Post by fuki » Sat May 04, 2019 10:18 pm

Spike wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:54 pm
Best wishes for your comfort, and for recovery from the flu. If you don't object, I will wish it away on your behalf.
Thanks Friend, today it was (yesterday now) Remembrance of the Dead in the Netherlands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_of_the_Dead

also just watched a shocking video revealing cruelty to infant calves by workers during transit from Ireland to Europe.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/4057005/vide ... cherbourg/

May all beings be well.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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