TOS?

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bokki
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TOS?

Post by bokki » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:27 am

just what i have expected.
a total let down.

[Mod note: edited to remove presumed personal attack on ZS staff. As befits a Dharma forum, let's keep discussion focused on topics at hand, rather than personalities. Complaints RE staff actions may be submitted by PM.]
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burst into flames.
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Meido
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Re: TOS?

Post by Meido » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:44 pm

Your suggestions for improvement of the TOS are welcome here.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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[james]
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Re: TOS?

Post by [james] » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:46 pm

My edit suggestions:

Black: Unchanged
Red: Delete or move
Blue: Changes
Green: Personal comments or additions


1. Zen Space’s purpose is to primarily to provide a forum for discussion of Zen Buddhism. The primary purpose of Zen Space is to provide a forum for discussion of Zen Buddhism.
Members should take care to post in relevant parts of the Forum. Miscellaneous topics, including discussion of non-Buddhist traditions, are welcome in the Lounge.


2. Let’s keep discussion focused on the topic of the thread. Rather than post off-topic in a thread, please start a different thread. Threads that veer off-topic may be split by Zen Space staff. Members should take care to begin topics in relevant parts of the forum. Miscellaneous topics, including discussion of non-Buddhist traditions, are welcome in the Lounge. Similarly, members are asked to keep discussion focused on the stated topic of the thread. Rather than post off topic in a thread, please start a different thread. Threads that veer off topic may be split or closed by Zen Space staff.

3. As a Dharma forum, Zen Space is not a place to cast aspersions on Buddhism or Buddhist teachings. Reasoned debate and disagreement are welcome, but denigration of Buddhism (or any spiritual tradition) is not. Using the board to proselytize for other religious traditions will not be tolerated.

(What about proselytizing for Zen Buddhism? This was not unusual at ZFI. I always found it distasteful.)

4. Language showing basic politeness and respect is the rule for all discussion.

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(I object to the whole of section 14. It serves no practical purpose that I can see, not even the first part.)

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17. Posting or other actions which breach these Terms of Service or cause a disturbance in other ways, should just be reported to Zen Space staff for action at their discretion. Members should refrain from attempting to moderate or correct other members.

18. Moderator actions are not appropriate forum discussion topics. Please contact staff directly by PM to discuss these.

19. The Terms of Service apply equally to private messages (PM’s) between members.
Last edited by [james] on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: TOS?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:22 am

Members,
1. Zen Space’s purpose is to primarily to provide a forum for discussion of Zen Buddhism. Members should take care to post in relevant parts of the Forum. Miscellaneous topics, including discussion of non-Buddhist traditions, are welcome in the Lounge.
This is surely garbled; merely "typo"-infected. Or only needed a proof-reading. So...,

Try:

"1. Zen Space’s purpose is primarily to provide a forum for discussion of Zen Buddhism. Members should take care to place particular posts in content-relevant parts of the Forum. Miscellaneous topics, including discussion of non-Buddhist traditions, are welcome in the Lounge."

(I'll keep reading the TOS elements as thus far proposed)

Thanks!, Meido. And Admins.

--Joe

ps Good to see James hereabouts. Howdy!, from our warm desert (27 C / 80 F, again today, and utterly dry; clear skies; great for star-gazing [but, bright moon]. Mercury making a fine, bright, apparition in dawn sky, ...with Jupiter and Mars well above Mercury, and themselves quite close together...).

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desert_woodworker
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Re: TOS?

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:00 am

Point 14 in the proposed TOS is interesting to me.

I'd like to keep my screen-name, just because I would. I like 'desert_woodworker' as a descriptive and identifying working-appellation. It's my working-appellation.

I'd have no hesitation in future, if, say, it's insisted and sufficient, to SIGN my posts with a full, legal name, maybe even my own. If that would suit, then I'm on-board. Fine and dandy. Else, DW will look for another place to shed sawdust; or, no place at all besides the compromised plumbing in the shower-room of my olde Adobe abode. The flexible snake must go for another excursion soon (and never fails).

Thanks, all.

You see how "Attachments bite".

--Joe

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Meido
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Re: TOS?

Post by Meido » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:23 am

Thanks for the discussion and suggested improvements, everyone. I don't have time at the moment to take a careful look, but will tomorrow. I expect our Admin will chime in as well whenever he can...he actually improved my original draft TOS quite a bit.

Begging your indulgence for grammar and typos...at the time we were rushing to get it done. I expect we'll soon get those cleared up with your help.

RE #14, I actually did not intend that to mean that folks couldn't use whatever screen names they like. It was lifted from other forums that provided some model language, but I see it doesn't apply here since real names are not even requested during registration. To be honest my personal preference would be for folks to use their actual names, and photos as avatars. But I leave that decision to others, and in any case hadn't planned on pressing for it.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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lindama
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Re: TOS?

Post by lindama » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 am

[james] wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:46 pm
3. As a Dharma forum, Zen Space is not a place to cast aspersions on Buddhism or Buddhist teachings. Reasoned debate and disagreement are welcome, but denigration of Buddhism (or any spiritual tradition) is not. Using the board to proselytize for other religious traditions will not be tolerated.

(What about proselytizing for Zen Buddhism? This was not unusual at ZFI. I always found it distasteful.)
agree

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Meido
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Re: TOS?

Post by Meido » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:45 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 am
agree
James, Linda...could you please provide some examples of this so I can be certain what you mean? PM is fine also.

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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Dan74
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Re: TOS?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:36 am

Thank you all for the feedback - the efforts are much appreciated.

As far as corrections/edits go, they make sense.

The #14 was intended firstly (as I understood it) to mean "registration". So the actual registration is done with the real name/working or permanent email (as much as this makes sense).

Participation is another matter. I think that some of us prefer addressing people by their real names with real pictures, to keep the exchange as close to real-life as possible. This is preferable in my view. It is not something I am prepared to impose, just strongly suggest.

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KeithA
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Re: TOS?

Post by KeithA » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:09 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:45 am
lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 am
agree
James, Linda...could you please provide some examples of this so I can be certain what you mean? PM is fine also.

~ Meido
Gotta admit, that one was a head scratcher for me too. I even googled "proselytize" to make sure there wasn't some usage that I wasn't aware of. :103:

_/|\_

----------------------------------------------------------

edit: I tried to respond to Dan's post separately, but the system won't let me post again. Anyway, here is what I had to say:
Yes, thanks, especially to James for such a detailed examination of the TOS

I also completely agree with the last part of your post, Dan. IMHO, injecting a little "real-life" into conversations helps keep things civil.
Sorry, I realize this is a little clumsy
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

test

Re: TOS?

Post by test » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:56 pm

el gatito wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:42 pm
To ensure email is working we must require email verification upon signing up (will set it up right away)
From now on, new users are required to verify email before starting to post by means of answering the following message:

From: "Zen Space" <help @ zen1 . space>
...

Welcome to Zen Space forums

Please keep this email for your records. Your account information is as
follows:

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Username: test

Board URL: https://zen1.space
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Please visit the following link in order to activate your account:

...

Your password has been securely stored in our database and cannot be
retrieved. In the event that it is forgotten, you will be able to reset it
using the email address associated with your account.

Thank you for registering.

--
Thanks, The Management

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[james]
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Re: TOS?

Post by [james] » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:59 pm

KeithA wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:09 pm
Meido wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:45 am
lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 am
agree
James, Linda...could you please provide some examples of this so I can be certain what you mean? PM is fine also.

~ Meido
Gotta admit, that one was a head scratcher for me too. I even googled "proselytize" to make sure there wasn't some usage that I wasn't aware of. :103:
If someone constantly states that there is a specific way of practicing Zen and that if one is not practicing in this way one is not practicing Zen and, furthermore, that one should be practicing Zen in this way ... I would say that this person is proselytizing for Zen Buddhism. It is unnecessary and, in my opinion, it quickly becomes offensive.

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Dan74
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Re: TOS?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:22 pm

el gatito wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm
bokki wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:27 am
just what i have expected.
a total let down.
Bokki:

(--- edited out bad joke ---)

Just play according to the rules, that's all.

Come, come, etc... (Rumi)

:namaste:
Haha! That reminded me of another prison story I will share sometime..

In any case, the Forum is a work in progress, an evolving space and I think folks here understand that we make mistakes and learn.
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited out my quoted bad joke

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KeithA
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Re: TOS?

Post by KeithA » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:47 pm

[james] wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:59 pm
KeithA wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:09 pm
Meido wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:45 am
lindama wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 am
agree
James, Linda...could you please provide some examples of this so I can be certain what you mean? PM is fine also.

~ Meido
Gotta admit, that one was a head scratcher for me too. I even googled "proselytize" to make sure there wasn't some usage that I wasn't aware of. :103:
If someone constantly states that there is a specific way of practicing Zen and that if one is not practicing in this way one is not practicing Zen and, furthermore, that one should be practicing Zen in this way ... I would say that this person is proselytizing for Zen Buddhism. It is unnecessary and, in my opinion, it quickly becomes offensive.
Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification, James. I would call what that describes as "promotion of orthodoxy", or something like that.

I have always felt that is none of my business how other folks practice. I guess the flip-side is if someone wants to discuss unorthodox practices in a discussion forum, then they probably should expect it to be discussed.

Alternatively, a working definition of "Zen Buddhism" could be developed and accepted. I suspect that would be highly contentious, though. :104:

Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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fuki
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Re: TOS?

Post by fuki » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:53 pm

I'm fine with anything, I know the time and energy it takes to build a forum and no matter how tolerant or conservative it never happens that everyone is fully pleased. So I have no suggestions I'll adapt to any TOS.

thanks for everyone's service and posting.

:cat:

wait I do have one suggestion :lol:

trying to post this but keep waiting and retrying because it says; "you cannot make another post so soon after your last"

any chance we can lose the time thingy?
I often log in once a week or day or whatever and can post 5x in 5 minutes, Im a poster not a thinker so it doesnt take me aeons to write something. :P
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Re: TOS?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:00 pm

Good to see you posting again, Fuki. Floodposting restriction disabled (I hope...either that, or I set the forum on self-destruct...)

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Re: TOS?

Post by michaeljc » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:41 pm

fuki wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:53 pm
I'm fine with anything, I know the time and energy it takes to build a forum and no matter how tolerant or conservative it never happens that everyone is fully pleased. So I have no suggestions I'll adapt to any TOS.
Ditto

m

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Meido
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Re: TOS?

Post by Meido » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:58 pm

Had a chance to read more carefully. I also agree that the tweaks James suggests are fine for the most part. And the addition of the final point RE personal messages fills an important gap we had missed.

RE point #14: I would not support removing the prohibition on multiple accounts per user. RE real names, a decision could be made in several directions:

1. Leave things as they are (not requested at registration).
2. Start requesting real names at registration.
3. Go all out and require real names and avatar photos of everyone.

There are pros and cons to all three paths. Personally I think that choices 2 and 3 have more pros than cons. However I'm fine with any of them, and obviously choice 1 is the easiest. The original intent was to forestall some of the trollishness we've seen elsewhere that was to my mind somewhat enabled by anonymity. However, if modding is done well it may be redundant to require anything more than we presently do. We might at some point want to specify that folks presenting themselves as ordained or teachers at least use their public names.

RE the stated requirement for non-disposable or non-temporary emails, I assume that is common TOS language aimed at folks setting up sock-puppet accounts, since they usually do so using email addresses created solely for that purpose. But since we already have a prohibition against multiple accounts in there, it's fine I think to remove that bit.

RE proselytizing for Zen, the original point in the TOS (as I expect everyone understands) was meant as a warning against the kind of thing we've seen on a few occasions elsewhere: the occasional member bent on proclaiming the superiority of Abrahamic faiths, that Mahayana is not Buddhavacana, etc. I have no problem with respectful debate between traditions...it was more a wholesale fundamentalist/triumphalist kind of posting that was targeted. And, I do want to say that there are times when it really is helpful to let a poster know that some ideas about Zen are, well, just not correct. The main thing to me is that discourse remains well-intentioned and respectful.

To address James and Linda's concerns, we could add some language reminding that there are a great variety of ways that different Zen lineages approach the path according a student's conditions, that we should be respectful of traditions other than our own, that our primary concern should be our own practice rather than correcting others, and so on. Or is it enough that we say discourse should remain respectful...and that anyone feeling put upon can hit the "report this post" button at any time?

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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lindama
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Re: TOS?

Post by lindama » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:00 pm

Meido wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:58 pm
To address James and Linda's concerns, we could add some language reminding that there are a great variety of ways that different Zen lineages approach the path according a student's conditions, that we should be respectful of traditions other than our own, that our primary concern should be our own practice rather than correcting others, and so on. Or is it enough that we say discourse should remain respectful...and that anyone feeling put upon can hit the "report this post" button at any time?

~ Meido
Thanks Meido,
here's my suggestion for #1:

1. The primary purpose of Zen Space is to provide a forum for discussion of Zen Buddhism. Members should take care to post in relevant parts of the Forum and be mindful that that there are a great variety of ways that different Zen lineages approach the path, according a student's conditions.

It could be split into two points, but keeping it as one point does seem to put some life into a "forum for discussion" in an open zen way. I think that could suffice.... and the reminder which Meido kindly gave me.... we can always point out when we notice ... respectfully ofcourse. I nearly forgot what I understand to be the highest teaching in zen..... "make a response".
:namaste:
linda

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Meido
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Re: TOS?

Post by Meido » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:27 pm

Thanks for the discussion, everyone. A final TOS with some edits will shortly be up.

Locking this thread. Going forward, please contact staff with any TOS questions.

:namaste:

~ Meido
The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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