Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

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SunWuKong
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:34 am

A quick review of the NIH article bets against the bank the bank on an embedded quote from Albert Ellis, the founder of Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, which is entirely inappropriate in the context. Its like saying "a Porsche isn't a great car because I've compared Fords to Volkswagens" - should never have wasted the ink on printing that one. I detect a strong odor of sour grapes
--- Eric H., also know as Sun Wu Kong, "an authentic genuine human being"
Birth is thus
Death is thus
Verse or no verse
What’s the fuss?

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jundocohen
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by jundocohen » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:53 am

Monkey King, what is the meaning of your list?
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:18 am
https://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/research/publications/

Publications

van Lutterveld, R., van Dellen, E., Pal, P., Yang, H., Jan Stam, C., Brewer, J. A., (2017) “Meditation is associated with increased brain network integration” NeuroImage (in press).

Crane, R.S., Brewer, J. A., Feldman, C., Kabat-Zinn, J., Santorelli, S., Williams, J. M. G., Kuyken, W., (2017) "What Defines Mindfulness-Based Programs? The Warp and the Weft.” Psychol Medicine 47: 990-999.

Levoy, E., Lazaridou, A., Brewer, J. A., Fulwiler, C., (2016) “An Exploratory Study of Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction for Emotional Eating” Appetite 109: 124-30.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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SunWuKong
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:55 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:53 am
Monkey King, what is the meaning of your list?
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:18 am
https://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/research/publications/

Publications

van Lutterveld, R., van Dellen, E., Pal, P., Yang, H., Jan Stam, C., Brewer, J. A., (2017) “Meditation is associated with increased brain network integration” NeuroImage (in press).

Crane, R.S., Brewer, J. A., Feldman, C., Kabat-Zinn, J., Santorelli, S., Williams, J. M. G., Kuyken, W., (2017) "What Defines Mindfulness-Based Programs? The Warp and the Weft.” Psychol Medicine 47: 990-999.

Levoy, E., Lazaridou, A., Brewer, J. A., Fulwiler, C., (2016) “An Exploratory Study of Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction for Emotional Eating” Appetite 109: 124-30.
The scientific studies that are said not to exist; and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I’m not a scientist, but if I were I would expect my blanket statements to be scrutinized along with everyone else’s
--- Eric H., also know as Sun Wu Kong, "an authentic genuine human being"
Birth is thus
Death is thus
Verse or no verse
What’s the fuss?

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jundocohen
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by jundocohen » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:35 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:55 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:53 am
Monkey King, what is the meaning of your list?
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:18 am
https://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/research/publications/

Publications

van Lutterveld, R., van Dellen, E., Pal, P., Yang, H., Jan Stam, C., Brewer, J. A., (2017) “Meditation is associated with increased brain network integration” NeuroImage (in press).

Crane, R.S., Brewer, J. A., Feldman, C., Kabat-Zinn, J., Santorelli, S., Williams, J. M. G., Kuyken, W., (2017) "What Defines Mindfulness-Based Programs? The Warp and the Weft.” Psychol Medicine 47: 990-999.

Levoy, E., Lazaridou, A., Brewer, J. A., Fulwiler, C., (2016) “An Exploratory Study of Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction for Emotional Eating” Appetite 109: 124-30.
The scientific studies that are said not to exist; and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I’m not a scientist, but if I were I would expect my blanket statements to be scrutinized along with everyone else’s
Hi,

Did I miss someone's comment? I don't think the point is that they don't exist, but that there are great questions about methodology for the great majority of meditation studies over past decades because of small sample sizes for many studies, mixing and matching types of meditation and lengths of sitting, subjective interpretations by both participants and experiment designers, etc. etc,, plus (as in the study in the OP) somewhat over the top or misleading reporting of results in the press.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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bodhi
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by bodhi » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:01 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:59 pm
On the question of quality in scientific studies of meditation, no. Structural problems with methodology in the vast majority of studies (such as those done under TM auspices) are now well known.
Well known by whom? If the scientific community is unreliable in this area then we can't trust the reports that are critical of research.

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jundocohen
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by jundocohen » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:16 am

bodhi wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:01 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:59 pm
On the question of quality in scientific studies of meditation, no. Structural problems with methodology in the vast majority of studies (such as those done under TM auspices) are now well known.
Well known by whom? If the scientific community is unreliable in this area then we can't trust the reports that are critical of research.
:113:
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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bodhi
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by bodhi » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:29 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:16 am
bodhi wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:01 pm
jundocohen wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:59 pm
On the question of quality in scientific studies of meditation, no. Structural problems with methodology in the vast majority of studies (such as those done under TM auspices) are now well known.
Well known by whom? If the scientific community is unreliable in this area then we can't trust the reports that are critical of research.
:113:
For instance, from one of the articles that you linked to:
A cross-sectional study on the effects of intensive and long-term meditation reported that over 60% of individuals had at least one negative effect, which varied from increased anxiety to depression and full-blown psychosis.
Basically the opposite of the hype, but is this a reliable study?

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lindama
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by lindama » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:18 am

None of this, of course, invalidates Buddhism or other religions' claims about the moral value and eventually life changing potential of its beliefs and practices. But our research findings are a far cry from many popular claims made by meditators and some psychologists.
a cowardly and ambiguous statement....... and, we still need to discuss this.

Who said that you become a better person? the ego? Meditation can point to awareness.

As far as the methodology being flawed.... true enough, There is no methodology that can achieve more. The science gods are in the wrong pond.

I've been in and out of psychology several times.... walked away from a PhD.... there was nothing true about it. I couldn't do it.

The real question is..... why do we still look to authority for answers?

linda

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Wayfarer
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:32 pm

My two cents is, the attempt to validate 'the benefits of meditation' according to scientific methodology is dubious from the outset.

There is a current controversy in social sciences and medicine concerning what is called 'the replication crisis':
Wikipedia wrote:The replication crisis (or replicability crisis or reproducibility crisis) refers to a methodological crisis in science in which scientists have found that the results of many scientific studies are difficult or impossible to replicate/reproduce on subsequent investigation, either by independent researchers or by the original researchers themselves. The crisis has long-standing roots; the phrase was coined in the early 2010s as part of a growing awareness of the problem.

Because the reproducibility of experiments is an essential part of the scientific method, the inability to replicate the studies of others has potentially grave consequences for many fields of science in which significant theories are grounded on unreproducible experimental work.

The replication crisis has been particularly widely discussed in the field of psychology (and in particular, social psychology) and in medicine, where a number of efforts have been made to re-investigate classic results, and to attempt to determine both the reliability of the results, and, if found to be unreliable, the reasons for the failure of replication.
I would imagine that 'meditation studies' would be a typical case where replication of results might be very difficult. As Guo Go mentions right at the head of this thread, that is in part because all such studies, and meta-studies (studies of studies) embody attitudes, expectations, implicit criteria and so on. Likewise, the attitude and demeanour of the teacher of meditation might convey, or fail to convey, something essential to the very practice.

So I think, subjecting the benefits of meditation to scientific analysis is seeking to quantify something which is essentially qualitative in nature. Meditation is a very subtle thing, it doesn't lend itself well to being sliced and diced by people in white coats. I think an element of the motivation for such studies is to "validate" the subject from a "scientific point of view" - like, "science shows" that "this works". But it forgets that modern science, objective science, is a third-person discipline, it deliberately and methodologically excludes the first-person perspective. But that is where the changes that arise from meditation, if they occur, are to be found.
The most important thing is not at all important.

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SunWuKong
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:30 pm

The interesting studies are the ones where stress related illness can be empirically measured, such as in the case of heart disease. It's also interesting that treating perceived stresses, such as what drives alcoholics to drink, seems to be beneficial and measurable. Areas that its not so clear, as per the common claims what the positive effects and benefits of meditation are famous for, many of them there's no science at all backing it up. Still, there's lots of claims and counter-claims, and quite a few counter-claims are as lacking in science as are the claims. The off-hand opinion of a scientist is worthless particularly in the grant-funded battlefield research occupies. Using such claims isn't using science to back up any particular view.
--- Eric H., also know as Sun Wu Kong, "an authentic genuine human being"
Birth is thus
Death is thus
Verse or no verse
What’s the fuss?

bukowski
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by bukowski » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:13 am

Well said wayfarer, spot on in my view. :bow2: bukowski.

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SunWuKong
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Re: Study finds meditation may not make you a better person

Post by SunWuKong » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:04 pm

Know what about this topic? Leave it up to the meditator as to whether or not they feel it helps them. Nobody else needs an opinion because it’s none of their concern.
--- Eric H., also know as Sun Wu Kong, "an authentic genuine human being"
Birth is thus
Death is thus
Verse or no verse
What’s the fuss?

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