Dreams, lucid dreams, Astral projection..

[bokki]

thnx , lol, im really ..lol

Everyone dreams while sleeping, REM, some just dont remember any, most pps remember some here and there, less pps remember a lot of them, a few have lucid dreams, like u in your example. by words of deep practitioners of dzogchen an others, they even stop dreaming totaly..or continue practicing their sadhana in this state.., \
But, what do you think of astral projection? is it true, or a another dream?
You see, having some lucid dreams, as a youth i decided to try those practices to entice an astral, you know dream writing, and various visualizations. new agey cagey stuff, i know..
iv tried that untill id write over 10 dreams a night, even had my clock to wake me up a few times a night,..all was a lot of dreams, even total prophecies of nothing biggy, but things i thought would surely not happen, and when things got a bit weird, i let it go..and i know weird, believe me..
but no astral, just lucid here and there..i think i did that 4 at least half a dozen times, with years appart. no astral.
i gave that up as a total skam, i mean, astral projection?... yeah. what a foolish idea..

and , like 30 years after trying a bit here and there..
in a matter of half a year i had 3 spontanious, freaked out each time, lasted for a second or two..
man..was i surprised..lol
since then none,..
but, what do u think of astral, and does anyone here experience them?
i could detail them, they were very short, but thats not the point.
r they true, or was i in a big makyo?
thnx.

b

[fuki]

Thanks bokki,

As a young child I had many involuntary OBE's, which were beautiful but often also very horrific experiences, having no idea what OBE's are nor having read any books about them I was pretty lost and fearful at night. One day a book found me in the 2nd hand store (just as years later a zen book found me) the book was by Robert Monroe, I took it home and was very thankful because it was exactly what I needed, the "book" taught me how to protect myself from bad experiences and influences. I'm not actively practising such things anymore but occassionally they happen, often I wake up finding myself hitting the ceiling while lying in bed, first time this happened as a kid it was very fearful, but once you get used to it and know the physical body isn't moving it can be a beautiful learning experience, especially if you happen to meet "spirit guides" from different realms/dimensions. Whether it is "true" or "another dream" I won't comment on, ofcourse there are differences, and I never tried anything, it just happens, nevertheless remaining aware while falling asleep can bring this about, or one can enjoy a dreamless sleep too.

But for anyone who does need protection (whether claimed as true or another dream)
These words were in the opening of the book found in my early teens, they helped tremendously, all "dangerous trips" ended and ever since life has been a blessing, encountering Zen as one of them. I had one NDE too when young, sure there are projections of mind which are not the "real deal" but the multiverse is endless, lots to explore, and remember, there is no truth, only dreaming.

I am more than my physical body.

Because I am more than physical matter, I can perceive that which is greater than the physical world.

Therefore, I deeply desire to Expand, to Experience; to Know, to Understand; to Control, to Use such greater energies and energy systems as may be beneficial and constructive to me and to those who follow me.

Also, I deeply desire the help and cooperation, the assistance, the understanding of those individuals whose wisdom, development and experience are equal or greater than my own.

I ask their guidance and protection from any influence or any source that might provide me with less than my stated desires.
~Robert Monroe

[lindama]

careful dear ones.... you might get the "appropriate response" .... "go get yourself checked out by a licensed therapist (to make sure you're not looney tunes or something."

These realms are not unusual, as I told bodhisattva. They happen. I don't know exactly what is meant by makyo, but as far as I know, it is leaning in the direction of a licensed therapist or zen teacher wacking the paranormal .... seemingly not a part of zen. Fair enough, zen has a diff method. Knowing how to accept and handle such experiences in one's life is another matter.... that is gold.

I'd say, to start, there is a bit of overlap with spiritual practice because there is a temptation for seeking.... enlightenment, OBE, astral projection, time travel, etc.... the seeking is lifeless whether in zen or other practices. Seeking after the experience last week.... lifeless.

As far as the experiences themselves, they happen. About 1990, I was a part of the Spiritual Emergency Network in graduate school for Transpersonal Psychology. Experiences were happening to ordinary people who had no context or background (all over the country). Most folks were not delusional, it simply didn't fit with their current reality. Yes, there are distinctions to be made between mentally ill delusion and spiritual experience. The network was there to support people in spiritual emergency. As far as I know, most zen denies this reality with focus on the concept of enlightenment, too bad. No one was calling these experiences enlightenment. Near Death Experiences (NDE) were also part.... reality was turned upside down, lives changed for the better.

I know people who time travel... saying the bible/history is not accurate. I know people who worked with Robert Monroe at his institute and eventually sought wise council with a balanced spiritual teacher who gave them principles for dealing with ego and power drives. Nothing denied, but it is vital not to appropriate such powers as ones own. Robert Monroe was a way shower to those without context.

We all take on this phenomena differently according to our temperament, ego, etc. Maturity and awareness are key for balance. I've never had guides ... they don't work for me, they work for some. I'm left to trust my sensibility and presence, and stand tall as my teacher said. IMO, there is no reason why this is incompatible with zen.... it's about the noticing. To beat a dead horse, my teacher said that there is nothing that is not zen.

As for the term astral body, it means diff things in diff systems.... I take it on in the context of Anthrosophic Medicine (Rudolf Steiner)....
http://www.anthromed.org/Article.aspx?artpk=957

... Our consciousness can shift its level of awareness outside of the body as well. It regularly alternates between fully engaging with the surrounding world, and withdrawing from its sensations. This happens most clearly in the rhythm of waking and sleeping. But even during waking consciousness, when many of our senses are fully “on,” our engagement through them to the world outside can range from self-absorbed oblivion to frenetic hyper-attentiveness. There is a mobility inherent in our sensing capacities. How we sense the world is of course also influenced by how tired we are, how interested we are, how many different things we are trying to pay attention to. It can shift, as quickly as our moods.

In anthroposophic medicine, this sensing or “sentient” activity, carried by a spiritual aspect of the human being, is called the astral body. While Rudolf Steiner does name it as a “body,” it is not like the physical body which we can touch and see in space, nor like the etheric body which manifests through processes of growth and metamorphosis in time. The astral body does not manifest so much in space or in time, but in quality. The quality of our awareness is a reflection of the activity of our astral body, as it moves and weaves through the lower members of the physical body and the etheric body. We can most clearly see its character by looking to the difference between a waking and sleeping human being. In the waking person, physical body, etheric body, astral body are all working together. In the sleeping person the physical and etheric bodies remain, while the astral body releases from them. Dreaming sleep can be seen as a transitional stage, when the astral body is entering back into the physical and etheric, bringing dreaming consciousness, movement, animation and perhaps some bodily sensation, but has not yet entered in deeply enough to begin to accurately sense the surrounding environment.

The flexibility of our sensing activity could be characterized as one archetypal quality of the astral body. The way we sense our environment varies, so that our consciousness is in effect mobile. The astral body brings not only sensing “mobility," it also brings physical mobility. Mobility is perhaps a better descriptor for the astral body than flexibility, because when a living being has an astral body, it can also move through its environment and choose how it wants to interact with the environment....

linda

ps, I swore this morning that I would never post again. I lied.

[jundocohen]

Personally, dreams can have some significance to the dreamer, although often a cigar is just a cigar.

Lucid dreaming is possible, but is simply a state between our ordinary daylight state and deep dreaming.

Astral projection, in the opinion of this writer, does not exist except that people convince themselves of all manner of things. Neither does time travel or out of body experiences. They have never been reliably demonstrated (although a real mental phenomenon is experienced. not actually the "out of body" aspect) despite large amounts of money and time being poured into the effort, and to the contrary, claims have often been disproven. Again, people will talk themselves into all manner of beliefs and, in centuries past, even many Buddhist leaders bought into such things. Zen practitioner and neuro-scientist Susan Blackmore has a lot to say on this topic ...

http://skepdic.com/obe.html



Just because people believe in something, that does not make it so. Such things can be brought about by mental illness, or simply illusion and the playfulness of the mind.

Of course, I am not the final word on such things, nor the final word on what this universe is capable of, and simply respectfully offer one viewpoint here.

Gassho, Jundo

[Larry]

Long term Chan practitioner kicks rival author in the balls in the first 90 seconds of her lecture....hmmm.....

[fuki]

or simply illusion and the playfulness of the mind.

The entire multiverse is a play of the elements, ofcourse it's all an illusion (with real consequences though) whether things are "real" or not and the discussion thereof is in itself part of the play. Astral projection does not (truly) exist in the same way that this discussion doesn't (truly) exist, but that kind of talk is moot, no appearance should be seen as existing or non-existing, real or not real, unless one temporarely needs such medicine. But if you need proof of unreality Jundo, it's all that's transient, so that includes the one who determines whether astral projection exists or not or time travel exists or not.

Ofcourse the experience of time travel is the same as the experience of chopping wood, one not more an "illusion" then whatever experience.
As you might have 'experienced', nothing ever happens.

[jundocohen]

Hi Fuki,

Folks often confuse the Buddhist observation that "reality is a dream" with reality being a dream. In fact, Dogen referred to reality as something like a "dream within a dream," a dream so dreamy that it now spins around to be as real as real can be. Thus, dream it may be, yet it is our dream so dream it well.

However, recognizing that there is a radically mind created aspect to the experience of reality (a green tree is not truly a "tree" nor "green" without an eye and brain to define it so), that does not mean that anything the mind can think up is true. For example, I might fly like superman and walk through walls in a nocturnal dream or a drug induced hallucination, but I am not likely to do so in this "day to day" dream where we live.

For this reason, just thinking or believing something so does not make it so. Astral Projection and OBE etc. have more in common with nighty night dreams and LSD trips than this ordinary world where we live, which has constraints by little things like the laws of physics and the like.

And so I feel, others may disagree, of course.

Gassho, Jundo

[fuki]

Hi Fuki,

Folks often confuse the Buddhist observation that "reality is a dream" with reality being a dream. In fact, Dogen referred to reality as something like a "dream within a dream," and dream which now spins around as so real that it is as real as real can be. Thus, dream it may be, yet it is our dream so dream it well.

However, recognizing that there is a radically mind created aspect to the experience of reality (a green tree is not truly a "tree" nor "green" without a brain and eye to define it so), that does not mean that anything the mind can think up is true. For example, I might fly like superman and walk through walls in a nocturnal dream or a drug induced hallucination, but I am not likely to do so in this "day to day" dream where we live.

For this reason, just thinking or believing something so does not make it so. Astral Projection and OBE etc. have more in common with nighty night dreams and LSD trips than this ordinary world where we live, which has constraints by little things like the laws of physics and the like.

I feel, others may disagree, of course.

Gassho, Jundo

I very much agree Jundo, nevertheless what I've experienced I've experienced and has nothing to do with believe or thinking nor can it ever be measure by "ordinary world" science, so the discussion whether things are true or not I don't find very functional. Furthermore saying "I experience" is already a mistake, there is experience, there is consciousness etc, it comes and goes. So whether it's true or not isn't even applicable to me. and ps it's not important, experiencing "other" realms or a morning coffee and poop. It simply happens (occasionally) I don't seek to experience "OBE's" or seek to poop, it simply happens, I don't mind what happens, it doesn't obstruct, nothing does.

[jundocohen]

I very much agree Jundo, nevertheless what I've experienced I've experienced and has nothing to do with believe or thinking nor can it ever be measure by "ordinary world" science, so the discussion whether things are true or not I don't find very functional. Furthermore saying "I experience" is already a mistake, there is experience, there is consciousness etc, it comes and goes. So whether it's true or not isn't even applicable to me. and ps it's not important, experiencing "other" realms or a morning coffee and poop. It simply happens (occasionally) I don't seek to experience "OBE's" or seek to poop, it simply happens, I don't mind what happens, it doesn't obstruct, nothing does.

Well, it could be. Who knows.

So, astral project over here when you get a chance, and I will buy you lunch.

Gassho, Jundo

[lindama]

yes, it's not about reality per se. the neuro-scientist makes a good case for the dangers of ego getting involved. that's all. no, it's not about astral projecting over for lunch... ego territory. There is a body of work that does not dismiss the phenomena. belief systems and skeptics at play here. She brings up the sensational garbage to support skepticism.

spiritual materialism may think something leaves the body. floating eyes needed to see.... lol theatrics here, tell her about consciousness.

This is a topic that is best not discussed, out of sight of ego. buyer beware.

last minute, she says she's a zen practioner, not a Buddhist. she says OBE and brain science can tell us who am I, why am I here. ugh

[Larry]

Yes, very important point about the tricks of ego in this area. The Universe is indeed a bit bigger than Materialism & Zen don't believe in this.

I don't get how those who truly experience the world in a grain of sand, can then put the blinkers back on.

[fuki]

Well, it could be. Who knows.

So, astral project over here when you get a chance, and I will buy you lunch.

Gassho, Jundo

I hope not, it usually only happens like that when someone very close is in danger, a trauma etc.
ps both "OBE" and "astral projection" are terms I'm not comfortable with, but it's what humans make of it in this limited 3D realm.

Whenever there's an "OBE" it's functional and hardly envolves anything known as the human realm or form, also sometimes there are just dreams that cannot be comprehended by (the human) mind, for instance a year ago inexplicable phenomena happened which was linked to a friend thousands of miles away who I haven't spoken in at least 6 months, I just thought it was a insubstantial breeze like most stuff but it only became stronger so I couldn't 'ignore' it anymore. When I finally spoke to him he talked about his sickness (cancer) and the hospital visits and from that moment it stopped, he simply acknowledged "the interzone take cares of itself" Things happen on a much deeper level then most humans can comprehend, and those who do can't really understand it but call it a poor translation based on our dense "vibration" Whatever one experiences has a function, again just ordinary day to day pooping and chopping wood is enough for me, why all that "other" stuff sometimes happens, who knows.

ps even if I were to suddenly find myself over 'there' you wouldn't notice it, probably only your cats and dogs would (if you have them)
and whoever appears before you, you shouldn't trust, if they appear they want something in return. So best to kill them all on the "road"

[fuki]

Yes, very important point about the tricks of ego in this area.

Ego projection is very human, nothing "astral" about it

ps I'm not comfortable with terms as "OBE" or "astral projection" to begin with, so right now I'm having a IBE experience?

any identification with a body to begin with is ignorance/delusion, so yeah, all pretty moot to discuss what's "real" or not.

[fuki]

spiritual materialism may think something leaves the body. floating eyes needed to see.... lol theatrics here, tell her about consciousness.

This is a topic that is best not discussed, out of sight of ego. buyer beware.

Yes.

ps
I do not believe in spirituality. Spirituality is as discardable as dishwater. I am nothing, and even the word nothing has no meaning. ~Sri Niz.
No ambition is spiritual. All ambitions are for the sake of the "I am". If you want to make real progress you must give up all idea of personal attainment.
~Sri Niz.

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but One Spirit, beside which nothing exists. This Spirit, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not green or yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. Only awaken to the One Spirit.
~Huang Po

Happy "flying" though.

[lindama]

well then, let it rest at that