On Topic

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Mason
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On Topic

Post by Mason » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:38 pm

Kaya wrote:During REM (rapid eye movenent) sleep, all humans dream. Not all recall their dreams. I believe my dog and probably most other mammals and birds, as hypothesized by scientists, also dream.
I dunno. Dharma and Science are rather different tools of measurement. Many things are considered possible in the Dharma world, or even "ordinary," that are either negated or unexplained by science. I believe truly dreamless sleep is one of them. There is also the attainment in which awareness/mindfulness is continuous throughout the entire sleep cycle. So lucid dreams and even deep sleep lucidity.

When samadhi is cultivated to truly superhuman levels, many, many strange things are possible.

Well, that's my beliefs on the matter.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:37 pm

Mason wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:38 pm
I dunno. Dharma and Science are rather different tools of measurement. Many things are considered possible in the Dharma world, or even "ordinary," that are either negated or unexplained by science. I believe truly dreamless sleep is one of them. There is also the attainment in which awareness/mindfulness is continuous throughout the entire sleep cycle. So lucid dreams and even deep sleep lucidity.
I used to practise this a lot, when you do it's relatively easy to stay aware during dreaming or deep sleeping (dreamless) but after a few years I figured this was not something I wanted to explore further, it became quit meaningless, it happens spontaneously often, being aware of dreaming quit often, which is cool, but the dreamless sleeps are most refreshing. Dreams are for most sentient beings just echos of the daily state, manifested through their hopes and fear but in some cases dreams may be 'planted' too, by nature, animals, other humans or non-humans. I also experienced dreams of premonition, skillfull means? :106:
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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:40 pm

meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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Mason
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Re: On Topic

Post by Mason » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:50 pm

Ah fuki you are too fantastic. Thanks!!

I gift you this picture of "my" cat.
20180922_225036.jpg
20180922_225036.jpg (1.54 MiB) Viewed 475 times
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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desert_woodworker
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Re: On Topic

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 pm

Mason,

Many neat points in your post. But I want to agree first of all with your point below.
Mason wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:38 pm
I dunno. Dharma and Science are rather different tools of measurement.
I'd say that Science is carried-out with the moving mind;

And I'd say that Dharma (-practice) is carried out when the mind is not moving (much... ).

Eventually (it can be hoped), the true, unmoving nature of mind is (can be) revealed, through effective practice and good cooperating-causes and conditions, and then all our original Human inheritances are suddenly regained. Note again that this is likely not permanent, but can wonderfully and wondrously persist for weeks and months. Although it gradually erodes or is covered-up again, continuous practice (such as Dogen recommends) can uncover it repeatedly. Hakuin writes of a number of episodes in his autobiography of multiple awakening(s), also, for example.

rgds,

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:23 pm

Oh wow Mason, he is stunning, orange cats are specifically purrfect for sun bathing pictures.
And taking one day after my alleged birthday, thanks! :111:

Thanks for planting that picture here, I'll let you know if it fuels my dreams. :D

ps we have a 'mysterious' white cat on the 7th floor here, it appeared today again and does so every few months, it's not a stray and no one knows to who he 'belongs' I'm liking today's "signs" :cat:
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Kaya

Re: On Topic

Post by Kaya » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:01 pm

Mason wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:38 pm
Kaya wrote:During REM (rapid eye movenent) sleep, all humans dream. Not all recall their dreams. I believe my dog and probably most other mammals and birds, as hypothesized by scientists, also dream.
I dunno. Dharma and Science are rather different tools of measurement. Many things are considered possible in the Dharma world, or even "ordinary," that are either negated or unexplained by science. I believe truly dreamless sleep is one of them. There is also the attainment in which awareness/mindfulness is continuous throughout the entire sleep cycle. So lucid dreams and even deep sleep lucidity.

When samadhi is cultivated to truly superhuman levels, many, many strange things are possible.

Well, that's my beliefs on the matter.
Superhuman (above human) is not for me. Dreams, and being fully alive as a human, are.

If I thought samadhi would kill the capacity to dream, and thus all the beauty, strangeness, music, thought provocation, etc., that I cherish and that makes me human, then I would say what's the point for me? (note: no judgement on others here)

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Larry
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Re: On Topic

Post by Larry » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:05 pm

Kaya wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:01 pm
no judgement on others here
Spoilsport :D

Kaya

Re: On Topic

Post by Kaya » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:51 pm

Larry wrote:
Spoilsport :D
Hey, really, I was just lying to protect my spotless reputation.

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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm

Kaya wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:25 pm
The awakened state, then, would seem to be one in which, during sleep, the so-called "alpha" brain waves usually correlated with dream-reports simply do not arise (have no need to arise; serve no needed purpose).
Hypothesis only.
Hypothetical or not, I do agree with this (meaning I came to the same conclusion while remaining fully aware while being dreaming or deeply asleep (dreamless) dreams arise because they have a function, just like one person reacts in anger and someone else would not, the 'function' of anger (of emotional states) is simply manifested energy, just like dreams. By the way I have a neigbour who says she's incapable of dreaming, a medical condition I forgot the name of, for her it's actually something undesirable for she needs to dream in order to process unspent energies, but I have no knowledge of such medical conditions. I can never speak for 'all' humans or anyone, but it matches my experience what Joe said. (function/purpose) So whether dreams manifest or not, it doesn't matter (the discussion about who's so called "right")
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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:27 pm

Kaya wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:51 pm
Hey, really, I was just lying to protect my spotless reputation.
:lol:
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Larry
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Re: On Topic

Post by Larry » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:30 pm

:lol:

Kaya

Re: On Topic

Post by Kaya » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:11 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm
Kaya wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:25 pm
The awakened state, then, would seem to be one in which, during sleep, the so-called "alpha" brain waves usually correlated with dream-reports simply do not arise (have no need to arise; serve no needed purpose).
Hypothesis only.
Hypothetical or not, I do agree with this (meaning I came to the same conclusion while remaining fully aware while being dreaming or deeply asleep (dreamless)
Understood. There is an analogous debate here in the U.S. between people who believe in the science of climate change, and those who don't.

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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:25 am

Kaya wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:17 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:34 pm
Kaya wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:25 pm
I have not seen studies in sleep-labs of rapid-eye movement during sleep of awakened people. Probably no one has. Until then, it's mere dictum and incorrect to say that "all" people dream.

Sorry to whack your little dictum hypothesis, but there is plenty of valid and reliable research on dreams to assert so. Also, so-called awakened people would doubtless participate in such in roughly the same proportion as they appear in the population.
Your comment is still dictum, and specious.

Show us the data. Or at least the analysis of it. That is, you will have to PROVE your assertion that "all people dream". Else, there's nothing to it at all.

'til then, the topic of wonderfully dreamless sleep in the awakened state is open, and should interest everyone... who's interested. ;-)

rgds,

--Joe
Siegel J.M. (2005). "REM Sleep." Ch. 10 in Principles and Practice of Sleep Medicine. 4th ed. M.H. Kryger, T. Roth, & W.C. Dement, eds. Elsevier. 120–135. Accessed July 21, 2010. Psychology.uiowa.edu Archived November 23, 2012, at the Wayback Machine.
Kaya, what are you saying with the book reference, what does a book about Zen Buddhism say or "proof"?
Again coming back to anger, like dreams, I'm sure there are scientists or psychologist who say "every human experiences anger"
I hear such things all the time from people, "everybody is this or that" or "everyone has sexual desires" etcetera
I usually stay silent, I'm more interested in what they experience, not what they claim applies to "all" :hatsoff:
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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 am

Kaya wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:59 am
Very sad loss, imo.
That something doesn't arise doesn't mean anything is lost, and what hasn't arisen is also like that.
if there's no need to dream, the dreams/experiences of others are sufficient.
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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:14 am

elg [v 2.0] wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:04 am
desert_woodworker wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:56 pm
Maybe only "so many" bytes of Attachment per Human Lifetime?
Try it again, now?..
Sweet dreams, or no-dreams :lol:

Goodnight Friends, "adieu from moi" "off to where nothing ever begins or ends and not seperate from anything else (that begins or ends)"

Image

:111:
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Kaya

Re: On Topic

Post by Kaya » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:24 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:06 am
Kaya wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:59 am
Very sad loss, imo.
That something doesn't arise doesn't mean anything is lost, and what hasn't arisen is also like that.
if there's no need to dream, the dreams/experiences of others are sufficient.
No no no. Needs are irrelevant. Something doesn't have to 'arise' to be present and discovered.

Holy smokes, no! Someone else's dreams or experiences are not sufficient for one to be 'fully alive'!

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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:35 am

Kaya wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:24 am
Holy smokes, no! Someone else's dreams or experiences are not sufficient for one to be 'fully alive'!
There is no greater aliveness then after (the) thorough death (of mind)

Ok now I'm "off" seeing if there are some insubstantial breezes to be extuinguished or arise and attach some conclusion about :lol:

unspent energy-energy-energy chameleon..... :lol:
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Kaya

Re: On Topic

Post by Kaya » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:54 am

At 3:30 am, is it safe on the streets there? Take a trusty cat to protect you.

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fuki
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Re: On Topic

Post by fuki » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:16 am

Kaya wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:54 am
At 3:30 am, is it safe on the streets there? Take a trusty cat to protect you.
make that 04:30
Actually plans changed, just got a phone call, I'm needed for a job.

Well it's not the Bronx, so relatively safe compared to other parts of the globe, but no worries I'm safety itself.
I don't mind guns and knives stabbing a mirror (though if needed I will fight/run) no reason (fear) to avoid anything though :hatsoff:
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