Fruit Flies

Anything at all goes here. Keep it clean.
Seeker242
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:04 am

[james] wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:45 am
Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:35 am
fuki wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:34 pm
I still have no success telling my cats not to kill moths/night-butterflies, they know birds are not food but they go beserk when a moth enters the house, I can catch 90% of them but sometimes they're just to quick.
One of the drawbacks of being born in the animal realm, the inability to practice the dharma.
I think all beings have the ability to practice the dharma hence the injunction against killing beings.
I don't think that's the reason for the injunction against killing beings.

Spike
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:18 am

Except for maybe one other,

No one else here would be a soldier.

No one else here would swat a mosquito off their kid.

(No one else here has a DNR.)

No worries. I will do all these "counter measures" for you.
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[james]
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:39 am

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:04 am
[james] wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:45 am

I think all beings have the ability to practice the dharma hence the injunction against killing beings.
I don't think that's the reason for the injunction against killing beings.
Too simple, straightforward, obvious?
Beings move throughout the six realms continuously, propelled by the creation and/or exhaustion of karma.
Devas ... exhaustion of residual karma is the only possibility.
Hell beings ... creation of merit by wholesome action however possible and by the merit offerings of others.
Other realms: availing, or not, to the recognition and practice of dharma.
The “reality” is the Samsara of six realms of being. The means of movement and emancipation are the karmic outcomes of beings’ actions. How else will animals, for example, move out of the animal realm?

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[james]
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:52 am

Spike wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:18 am
Except for maybe one other,

No one else here would be a soldier.

No one else here would swat a mosquito off their kid.

(No one else here has a DNR.)

No worries. I will do all these "counter measures" for you.
No I would not be a soldier. It’s madness. (may be a good thread topic)
If the kid is unable to do his own swatting, I would certainly help ... gently, carefully, kindly. That’s possible, isn’t it?
I do have a DNR. I’m not interested in being kept alive by drugs and machines.
Not sure what you mean by “counter measures”.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:18 am

[james] wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:52 am
Spike wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:18 am
Except for maybe one other,

No one else here would be a soldier.

No one else here would swat a mosquito off their kid.

(No one else here has a DNR.)

No worries. I will do all these "counter measures" for you.
No I would not be a soldier. It’s madness. (may be a good thread topic)
If the kid is unable to do his own swatting, I would certainly help ... gently, carefully, kindly. That’s possible, isn’t it?
I do have a DNR. I’m not interested in being kept alive by drugs and machines.
Not sure what you mean by “counter measures”.
Yes, per the Dr. Clipton character in Bridge on the River Kwai, soldiering is "Madness, madness".

"Counter measures", per Dalai Lama in LA Times quote.

Good of you to protect your child.

For me, precepts are just general rules or guidelines. They are worthy ideals to be strived for, not blindly executed without the best effort of contextual human thought.
Last edited by Spike on Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mason
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Mason » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:18 am

Spike wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:18 am
No one else here would be a soldier.

Thank goodness.

Do you practice Buddhism (honest question)? Or more of a Zen without the Buddhism part? Just wondering; I think it would help to clarify your position on these and other matters.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:45 am

Mason wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:18 am
Spike wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:18 am
No one else here would be a soldier.

Thank goodness.

Do you practice Buddhism (honest question)? Or more of a Zen without the Buddhism part? Just wondering; I think it would help to clarify your position on these and other matters.
Honest response: I don't owe you or anyone else an explanation of what I practice. I am not a hard-ass conservative who takes all "rules" literally and without my own human interpretation.

"Thank goodness"? I can't even begin to address this on behalf of my Dad, so many friends, dead, still wounded, etc.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Mason » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:48 am

Spike wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:45 am
Honest response: I don't owe you or anyone else an explanation of what I practice.


Did I say that you owe me an explanation? Was I wrong to ask you a question?
I am not a hard-ass conservative who takes all "rules" literally and without my own human interpretation.
Who here has presented an inhuman interpretation of the precepts? The responses of other people in this thread have seemed to me to be respectable and deeply human, endowed with a respect for all forms of life.
"Thank goodness"? I can't even begin to address this on behalf of my Dad, so many friends, dead, still wounded, etc.
Thank goodness that people here will not have to go through that. I deeply respect the bravery of soldiers who risk their lives for the sake of their country. I just believe that killing human beings is wrong.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Spike » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:42 am

Mason wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:48 am
Did I say that you owe me an explanation? Was I wrong to ask you a question?
Ok. My teachers have been Kapleau, Kennett, Baker, and Eido Shimano, the latter including formal monastic koan study. Also, a few sesshins with Sandy Gentei Stewart. Online: Genjo and Meido.
Mason wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:48 am
Who here has presented an inhuman interpretation of the precepts?
Evidently, me.
Mason wrote: The responses of other people in this thread have seemed to me to be respectable and deeply human, endowed with a respect for all forms of life.
Yes, and every one human. In their own way!
Mason wrote: Thank goodness that people here will not have to go through that.
You don't know that. But yes, I don't think you or perhaps anyone else here is up for volunteering against terrorists, white nationalists, etc., if it comes to that.
Mason wrote: I deeply respect the bravery of soldiers who risk their lives for the sake of their country. I just believe that killing human beings is wrong.
You don't have an alternative to killing human beings, other than theoretical (against). Right or wrong, rehabilitation of Osama would not have been possible, under contemporary conditions, so he was killed. I believe this is why the Dalai Lama specifically endorsed "counter measures" against him.

You live in a cushioned world, literally.
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Seeker242
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:19 pm

[james] wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:39 am

Too simple, straightforward, obvious?
The Buddha essentially didn't teach it.
How else will animals, for example, move out of the animal realm?
Animals generally move out of the animal realm when their previous bad karma is exhausted, which is a very rare occurrence. Except for very special circumstances, The Buddha never taught that animals can practice anything. That is why human rebirth is considered precious, especially so in a time when the dharma is in the world and can be learned and practiced. The overwhelming majority of beings are not humans. The reality of Samsara is six realms of beings yes and when it comes to practicing the dharma, human opportunity far surpasses them all, except for maybe the Pure Land rebirth.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:03 pm

./\.
cooper

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[james]
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:28 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:19 pm

... and when it comes to practicing the dharma, human opportunity far surpasses them all, except for maybe the Pure Land rebirth.
That reminds me to make an addendum to my DNR card: No Pure Land rebirth dharanis to be recited over my dead or dying body.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by [james] » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:19 pm

Animals generally move out of the animal realm when their previous bad karma is exhausted, which is a very rare occurrence.
Why do you say that it is a very rare occurrence? It is somewhat absurd to attach a timeline to this. How many kalpas and aeons have any of us been wandering through the six realms? It’s not over till it’s over. Whether human, deva, dog , bug ... it is all of a piece.
Except for very special circumstances, The Buddha never taught that animals can practice anything. That is why human rebirth is considered precious, especially so in a time when the dharma is in the world and can be learned and practiced.
The Dharma is in the world for all beings, however receptive and responsive we may or may not be.
The overwhelming majority of beings are not humans. The reality of Samsara is six realms of beings yes and when it comes to practicing the dharma, human opportunity far surpasses them all, except for maybe the Pure Land rebirth.
That human opportunity surpasses (far or not so far I can’t say) them all does not negate the possibility that all beings benefit from the Dharma. Benefit doesn’t necessarily mean practice.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 pm

[james] wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:19 pm

Animals generally move out of the animal realm when their previous bad karma is exhausted, which is a very rare occurrence.
Why do you say that it is a very rare occurrence?
Because that's what the Buddha taught. The Chiggala Sutta for example:
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
And the Nakha­sikha Sutta
At Sāvatthī. Then the Buddha, picking up a little bit of sand on his fingernail, addressed the bhikkhus: “What do you think, bhikkhus? Which is more: the little bit of sand on my fingernail, or this great Earth?”

“Bhante, the great earth is far more. The little bit of sand on your fingernail is tiny. Compared to the great Earth, those cannot be compared or even imagined; it is not even a significant fraction.”

“In the same way, bhikkhus, sentient beings reborn as humans are few as this bit of sand on my fingernail. But those not reborn as humans are many as the sand on this great Earth. Therefore, you should strive diligently and without delay to end this suffering in the rebirth process”.
The Dharma is in the world for all beings, however receptive and responsive we may or may not be.
Sure, but that doesn't mean cats and dogs can practice it.
That human opportunity surpasses (far or not so far I can’t say) them all does not negate the possibility that all beings benefit from the Dharma. Benefit doesn’t necessarily mean practice.
The references made are specifically to practicing.

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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:35 am

One of the drawbacks of being born in the animal realm, the inability to practice the dharma. Humans on the other hand, we do have this opportunity and it should not be wasted.
Perhaps. I don't know. I do know - first hand- that many animals are bodhisattvas, I wouldn't take the scriptures too literal or as absolutes, their are many "exceptions to the rule" I think the most important thing whether an animal or a human animal (yes we are mammals) that one should just do their true job, and manifest natural qualities, whatever they may be, I doubt a lot of temporary animals would be happy in a human form.
Great reason to keep the precepts pure.
No doubt, again precepts are a natural way of living even for those who never heared of precepts, but universally to whomever it may apply, it would be skilled to follow them.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:34 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 pm

Sure, but that doesn't mean cats and dogs can practice it.

They do not need to, my cats have qualities and experiences I could never practise or experience.
And if you look at some animals, I'd say they have no need for a human form or religion, since humans are (often) the most "evil" of all animals, you'd "start to" think that humans are born because they need it more, not because we're (karmically) blessed to be human or something. :hatsoff:

Personally speaking (memory bank) my so called "next life" would be in service to the dharma if I were someone's pet instead of human, why would I need to practise dharma then, I'm of much more service to the universe caring about my human "owner" ;) In the same way, without some bodhisattva animals in my childhood I could have turned out a serial killer or whatever, (since humans weren't kind but mean and destructive even my own family) and look at me now, I couldn't say whether the dharma or a feline was most important on the way, without those pets I might have not been able to have an ear to hear :cat:
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:49 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:19 pm

... and when it comes to practicing the dharma, human opportunity far surpasses them all, except for maybe the Pure Land rebirth.
There is no such thing as lower forms in the universe. All sentient advanced civilisations understand this eventually. This then is simply a crude human perception of the universe in how they ascertain specific values and relationships with other things. The fact human beings behave much like a virus, needlessly annihilating most other Earth species, demonstrates human beings are not the ‘higher’ life forms they would deem themselves to be. For in doing so they are in fact causing their own demise. Suffering then is experienced within all species.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=153&start=40#p5332
That reminds me to make an addendum to my DNR card: No Pure Land rebirth dharanis to be recited over my dead or dying body.
:lol:

Let them, it's probably more for them then you, if they're genuine it's good for them. ;)
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:47 pm

[james] wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:55 pm

That human opportunity surpasses (far or not so far I can’t say) them all does not negate the possibility that all beings benefit from the Dharma. Benefit doesn’t necessarily mean practice.
I can relate to that astute observation, "also" the idea one is a human, an animal, a this or that ofcourse is ignorance, the idea "I am human" is due to false identification to form, there is no such thing as a human or animal consciousness, these "qualities" are merely due to the form or the birth principle, so whoever is identified to their human form - Buddhist practise is a wise practise, again non-human animals have no need of human contrivances such as religion. Another note, without trees, animals, insects etc there would be no Buddhadharma on earth for the human animal to practise, in the end all distinctions are a cloud of imagination. Nothing is the way we think it is.
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by fuki » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:39 pm

Spike wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:18 am

No worries. I will do all these "counter measures" for you.
Thanks bro, though be(a)ware of saying too much ppl can't understand, you know how that worked out in history. :hatsoff:
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Seeker242
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Re: Fruit Flies

Post by Seeker242 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:44 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:31 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:35 am

One of the drawbacks of being born in the animal realm, the inability to practice the dharma. Humans on the other hand, we do have this opportunity and it should not be wasted.
Perhaps. I don't know. I do know - first hand- that many animals are bodhisattvas, I wouldn't take the scriptures too literal or as absolutes, their are many "exceptions to the rule"
Exception to the rule aren't exactly relevant when you aren't discussing exceptions.
fuki wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:34 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:08 pm

Sure, but that doesn't mean cats and dogs can practice it.
They do not need to, my cats have qualities and experiences I could never practise or experience.
The question was not whether they need to or not, the question was whether they can. If you could do bad karma, be reborn in the animal realm because of that, and continue practicing, the Buddha would have said so. But, he never said that or taught that. That's not a Buddhist teaching.
And if you look at some animals, I'd say they have no need for a human form or religion, since humans are (often) the most "evil" of all animals, you'd "start to" think that humans are born because they need it more, not because we're (karmically) blessed to be human or something.


Animals do need it, because animals suffer. It's no secret that every Buddhist tradition, including zen, considers human birth to be the most beneficial for practice to end the suffering of beings. The problem with most humans is they waste this opportunity and then most of them fall back to the animal realms or hell realms because they did waste it. And therefore, continue to suffer. If one wishes for beings to stop suffering, one wishes them to have a most favorable rebirth for that, the most favorable rebirth is human.
Personally speaking (memory bank) my so called "next life" would be in service to the dharma if I were someone's pet instead of human, why would I need to practise dharma then, I'm of much more service to the universe caring about my human "owner" ;) In the same way, without some bodhisattva animals in my childhood I could have turned out a serial killer or whatever, (since humans weren't kind but mean and destructive even my own family) and look at me now, I couldn't say whether the dharma or a feline was most important on the way, without those pets I might have not been able to have an ear to hear
Sure, but that does not mean the cats were practicing anything.
There is no such thing as lower forms in the universe.
Yet, there is such a thing as a most favorable birth for practicing and that birth is a human birth. Like I said before, every Buddhist tradition, everywhere, recognizes this.

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