Mindfulness Meditation

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:58 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:10 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:46 am
I'm asking if you vote LIKE or DISLIKE to Mindfulness Meditation; see the quotes Jundo supplied, they are very descriptive
I then do not vote if you don't mind, I dont lock up practise in a mental picture as in yes or no, like or dislike.
And thanks for the description, yes ofcourse I'm familiar with that practise, as in vipassana.
Gotcha

Both Vipassana and Samatha are labeled Mindfulness, they are from the Satipatanna Sutta, and the Anapanasati Sutta respectively.

In addition, Yoga Nidra is also used; I'm specifically skeptical of torpid or sleepy states coupled with guided meditation, how can you tell its not hypnosis? Okay i admit it, i'm skeptical of guided meditation (talk through) entirely
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lobster
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by lobster » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:02 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:58 am
In addition, Yoga Nidra is also used; I'm specifically skeptical of torpid or sleepy states coupled with guided meditation, how can you tell its not hypnosis? Okay i admit it, i'm skeptical of guided meditation (talk through) entirely
It is often hypnosis. :107:

People go in and out of light trance all the time. Many are entranced by their own monkey mind :114:
3, 2, 1 and wide awake
may not always work as an enlightened suggestion :116:

but then not making use of hypnosis for healing, relaxation, practice focus, behavour modification, giving up dukkha based suggestions for more skilled being etc. is a waste of a useful potential ... meanwhile here is a non skeptical flowering :115:

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KeithA
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by KeithA » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:44 pm

fuki wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:44 pm
KeithA wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:58 pm
.
I think there would be some well-reasoned objections, but for sure, I wouldn't do that outside of the Zen forum! lol! :116:
One of the things I appreciate from the Kwan Um days is understanding the function of speech, of that which appears, for instance someone says "all is one" (or a variation on it) there will always pop up ppl who will from a philosophical standpoint say "thats not what the Buddha taught" or something similair. But what is the function of the speech which ofcourse depend on a specific situation and circumstance? I really appreciate learning that way back from SS
We are all in this together, even when it's seems as though we aren't. :110:
Amen. :)
Correct function. Correct direction. :hatsoff:

During introduction at our center, I suggest to newcomers that all forms of meditation have at their core a very simple technique: notice a lack attention, return to a state of attention. What makes the various types of meditation different is their direction. So, the direction of a mindfulness seminar for a business group will obviously have a different direction than practice at the local Zen center. That's why the harumphing of our fellow Buddhists over different forms of mindfulness practice strikes me as a little self-important.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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fuki
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by fuki » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:20 pm

KeithA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:44 pm

Correct function. Correct direction. :hatsoff:

During introduction at our center, I suggest to newcomers that all forms of meditation have at their core a very simple technique: notice a lack attention, return to a state of attention. What makes the various types of meditation different is their direction. So, the direction of a mindfulness seminar for a business group will obviously have a different direction than practice at the local Zen center. That's why the harumphing of our fellow Buddhists over different forms of mindfulness practice strikes me as a little self-important.

_/|\_
Excellent, excellent.
thank you

:namaste:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:41 am

6 vote yes, 1 no, 1 abstain

Dhammawheel 6 voted yes.

Dharmawheel, interested in discussing the topic as opposed to voting positive or negative responses
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:37 am

bukowski wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:03 am
I was taught that mindfullness is moment to moment awareness, without a specific long term goal in mind. Metta, bukowski. :namaste:
Just wondering what that practice entails.
Are you just aware of your surroundings and sort of going with the flow?
Or are you just watching your thoughts as they float by?
Or are you putting more attention on the words that pass through your mind?
Or are you memorizing every detail of the day?

"Moment to moment awareness" sounds nice and all
But, what does it mean?
I don't know.

Is it like when one eats, one just eats; when one chops wood, one just chops wood?
When I was taught how to sit, I was given instructions. Pretty good instructions.
But this mindfulness, there was no straight forward instructions to follow.
Sorry for going off topic.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:50 am

avisitor wrote: Is it like when one eats, one just eats; when one chops wood, one just chops wood?
Exactly.You have given your own answer.
cooper

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:28 am

Enver M. wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:50 am
avisitor wrote: Is it like when one eats, one just eats; when one chops wood, one just chops wood?
Exactly.You have given your own answer.
Please tell me how you do that versus what you do now or previously???

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm

I'm no better than you.

if you like you can read viewtopic.php?f=2&t=562&start=120 about fundamentalists vs traditionalists to have an idea
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:31 pm

Enver M. wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm
I'm no better than you.
For a minute there, I thought you were going to cite the Ananda Sutras
And talk about the mindfulness meditation and the pursuit of the four
that perfect the seven that perfect the two factors which bring clear knowing and release to completion.
That is a tough one for me to understand.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:16 pm

avisitor wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:31 pm
Enver M. wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm
I'm no better than you.
For a minute there, I thought you were going to cite the Ananda Sutras
And talk about the mindfulness meditation and the pursuit of the four
that perfect the seven that perfect the two factors which bring clear knowing and release to completion.
That is a tough one for me to understand.
It's nice that the four that perfect the seven that perfect the two are neatly cataloged, so that when one feels something missing its easy to go check your practice. It's not meant to be a yoke around us. When we open mind and heart to Buddha Dharma Sangha this happens automatically

Here is a gift for you today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJf4ivzOcS4
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

avisitor
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:34 am

Great Sage EofH wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:16 pm
It's nice that the four that perfect the seven that perfect the two are neatly cataloged, so that when one feels something missing its easy to go check your practice. It's not meant to be a yoke around us. When we open mind and heart to Buddha Dharma Sangha this happens automatically
I know about the sitting but not about the four that perfect the seven that perfect the two
Try not to confuse myself with too much information
It feels like it acts like a yoke ... something to strive for ... trying to achieve the goal
But, yeah, open mind and heart to Buddha's Dharma .. home again

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bukowski
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by bukowski » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:07 pm

avisitor wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:28 am
Enver M. wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:50 am
avisitor wrote: Is it like when one eats, one just eats; when one chops wood, one just chops wood?
Exactly.You have given your own answer.
Please tell me how you do that versus what you do now or previously???
There you go. That was how I was a taught also. My understanding of this teaching is that when I am at work I focus on the task at work that I am doing, and not the one I may be doing later, or the one I completed yesterday. When I sit, I just sit and breathe, and watch my thoughts arise and fall, until they quieten down, (sometimes). Then I just remain aware of the space that they occupied, and sometimes my breath if my thinking kicks in again. Posture helps with this practice of gentle observation I find. Nothing special going on and no great goal.

This is how I was taught, and how I practice to this day

metta, bukowski, :namaste:

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:59 pm

Yes. I also quiet the mind by attention to the breath as it is in the body....mind....emotions....dharmas....
if you focus on only the mental things, you tend to get more mental things as a result
so to calm the mind, use the other 3 bases
this is done with the skandhas too, as per the Heart Sutra

:wool:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:26 pm

bukowski wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:07 pm
There you go. That was how I was a taught also. My understanding of this teaching is that when I am at work I focus on the task at work that I am doing, and not the one I may be doing later, or the one I completed yesterday. When I sit, I just sit and breathe, and watch my thoughts arise and fall, until they quieten down, (sometimes). Then I just remain aware of the space that they occupied, and sometimes my breath if my thinking kicks in again. Posture helps with this practice of gentle observation I find. Nothing special going on and no great goal.

This is how I was taught, and how I practice to this day

metta, bukowski, :namaste:
So one goes about their day with this mind set to do one thing at a time, focus at the task at hand
Sounds wonderful, that is until the someone asked one where are the car keys? ...
My mind goes, what?, was that important?, do I remember?, if I don't remember then was I mindful?
What does one remember while one is being mindful?

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:10 am

There is a Zen story about a Monk ready to go in and have his interview with the Roshi. He's been sitting with his koan and felt prepared. Instead of continuing in that direction the master asked him, when he entered, which side of the doorway was the walking stick on? left or right? The monk had no idea. Interview was over. Yes you need to know where the car keys are. It's not about instituting a practice that one does, while doing daily tasks, as much as it is how daily tasks are done, mindfully or absent-mindedly. Although sometimes we do breathing exercise or some chanting if its a suitable moment. There's things no one can tell you about, explore your experience to determine where the best practice can be found in daily things. Thich Nhat Hanh expressed his love of washing dishes by hand. I'm more like, in a Zen zone when i go to the hardware store. Incorporating daily tasks into our practice is a huge part of Zen. One of the reasons why Zen was so successful in ancient times.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:33 am

There is a Zen story about a Monk ready to go in and have his interview with the Roshi. He's been sitting with his koan and felt prepared. Instead of continuing in that direction the master asked him, when he entered, which side of the doorway was the walking stick on? left or right? The monk had no idea. Interview was over. Yes you need to know where the car keys are. It's not about instituting a practice that one does, while doing daily tasks, as much as it is how daily tasks are done, mindfully or absent-mindedly. Although sometimes we do breathing exercise or some chanting if its a suitable moment. There's things no one can tell you about, explore your experience to determine where the best practice can be found in daily things. Thich Nhat Hanh expressed his love of washing dishes by hand. I'm more like, in a Zen zone when i go to the hardware store. Incorporating daily tasks into our practice is a huge part of Zen. One of the reasons why Zen was so successful in ancient times.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by bukowski » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:27 pm

Hi avisitor.

If you have lost the car keys just try to find the car keys. Do you see?

Metta, bukowski

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by Great Sage EofH » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:56 pm

My phone tells me where my car is, so next I imagine it will find my keys for me too.

Although we have different teachers , different lineage, there's a lot of things every has to figure out for themselves. These forums are really great in some ways for doing precisely that. So this discussion has left the zafu and is now about moment by moment practice. Yes i truly believe every moment becomes practice, practice becomes our every moment. As I wrote in my bio, when i was first introduced to MBSR, right away I could tell this was having huge effect on my mind and heart, but it was hard to define what that was, so I wanted to seek out sangha or another group. The other thing is, I didn't want to turn the switch "off" - stop meditating - I wanted to carry it forward. It's actually as it turns out very crucial that samadhi be developed in other aspects of life and not have it confined to the cushion. My teacher encourages sitting, lying down, and walking practice. Standing practice is very good too I will add. As is washing dishes, etc. But how then, do we do something like Zen while driving? Thats precisely the point, we are required to use attention in a certain way, with some precision, with focussed attention, with wide-angle vision, thoughfulness, calm emotion, all these things while driving! And thats what they (Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Teachers) talk about when the teach sitting. Always be aware of everything. Look in every direction. So, going back to the zafu, the practice is one of waking up. Today I noticed this feeling when I was toying with sustained, controlled attention in zazen, this feeling arose that its like floating in a small boat. The buoyancy arises when the attention is sustained. Thats when breath becomes very shallow and slow, blood pressure drops. Sorry if this is rambling, but thats just it, carrying the buoyancy forward like Grand Master, i think its doable for almost everyone.

:namaste:

:namaste:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation

Post by avisitor » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:04 am

bukowski wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:27 pm
Hi avisitor.

If you have lost the car keys just try to find the car keys. Do you see?

Metta, bukowski
Thanks for the reply.
However, my situation is that when someone tells me to be mindful, I don't know what mindful means.
But, when told to sit, and watch the breath. Let thoughts go. Those instructions are concrete to me. Simple and easy.
I used the example of lost car keys as a way of showing how things slip the mind when focused up other things such as the task at hand.
One thing becomes more important than the next. Which to choose to focus upon.
For me I use a system of always putting the car keys in the same place when I get home
So, I always know where it is. Simplify life. Conscious? Mindful?

Also note, it only confuses me when people talk in riddles like Joshu's reply to what is the mean of the BodhiDharma coming from the west?
"The tree is in the garden". I understand it is to shock the disciple into awakening.
Sorry, just my opinion.

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