Mumonkan Case 5

Discussion of Zen Buddhism.
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lindama
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by lindama » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:20 pm

my money is on Spike, indeed, it's not a choice. neither is it about thinking about no thinking or any variation there of. my teacher always said, show me. arf, arf

Seeker242
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Seeker242 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:31 am

My teacher always said, in reference to this koan "100% become the man in the tree" :D

I would add that if you don't do that, then all you do is sit there thinking about it and then perhaps muttering something about what you're thinking about, thereby opening your mouth and failing. Or just dismiss it entirely. But if you do either of those, then you won't be able to answer it to the teacher's satisfaction.

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bukowski
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by bukowski » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:32 pm

Spike wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:07 pm
[james] wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:02 am
(Spike, I missed your post while writing. So how could it not be about a choice?)
Because zen is never about making distinctions.
Hi spike.


I have always found the idea that zen isn't about making distinctions challenging. To practice zazen is to make a distinction. To practice Buddhism is to aim for right view, right intention. Etc.. Which of course is another distinction.

I do understand that all of these distinctions, and indeed our practice, ourselves and everything else has no intrinsic self, but are the causes and conditions that bring, or do not bring about all things inherently distinct?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Metta, b. :namaste:

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fuki
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:45 pm

You're quoting Enver (unjust-love) there, not Spike.

Funny this afternoon while enjoying a coffee I had a neural imagination me replying;
Because zen is never about making distinctions.
"nor is it not"

But then all the "crap" spontaneously self-liberated in its own condition (in its very arising)
Thanks for the synchro-thingity always fun.
:cat:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:12 pm

Correction:
fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:45 pm
Enver (unjust-love)
my name(nickname) is loves's the unjust
meansthe most unjust of the loves

not unjust love
cooper

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fuki
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by fuki » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:25 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:12 pm
Correction:
I know bro, hey you know me freely playing with words ;)
I never thought about what your name means, just some words (to me)
but thanks for sharing.

ps my nickname (and kitty's) means "the ineffable" :cat:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

Spike
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Spike » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:04 am

bukowski wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:32 pm
Spike wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:07 pm
[james] wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:02 am
(Spike, I missed your post while writing. So how could it not be about a choice?)
Because zen is never about making distinctions.
Hi spike.


I have always found the idea that zen isn't about making distinctions challenging. To practice zazen is to make a distinction. To practice Buddhism is to aim for right view, right intention. Etc.. Which of course is another distinction.

I do understand that all of these distinctions, and indeed our practice, ourselves and everything else has no intrinsic self, but are the causes and conditions that bring, or do not bring about all things inherently distinct?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Metta, b. :namaste:
Your comment is really food for thought. I never considered my practice, from initiation until now, in the context of making a distinction. I look back, and somehow, it just happened.
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

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KeithA
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by KeithA » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:27 am

clyde wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:40 pm
Watch out below!
_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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lindama
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by lindama » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:02 am

What a predicament we have here! Spike had the tiger by the tail the first time. My teacher always said, show me. It's the koan way. If this had not been separated from the original post where I put it, it could have been a way shower. Instead, we have another koan in a separate box. no way to live a life. No blame, I'm coming to appreciate that the so-called koan culture may be a diff dog that needs a teacher.

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:29 am

fuki wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:25 pm
ps my nickname (and kitty's) means "the ineffable" :cat:
Nice!

Thanks for sharing.
cooper

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:55 pm

Question:

Does anyone who say I understand zen

understand zen?
cooper

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bukowski
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by bukowski » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:27 pm

Hi spike.

My practice was the same, but their were causes and conditions that led me to Buddhism, and I certainly made a distinct choice to continue with it, sit with a group, etc.

Metta, b. :namaste:

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Mason
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Mason » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:09 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:55 pm
Question:

Does anyone who say I understand zen

understand zen?
I don't know about the phrase "I understand Zen," but in my experience it's not uncommon for a teacher or student to indicate, in one way or another, that they have seen the true nature. That is one kind of understanding. There is also the body's gradual understanding of Zazen, the mind's conceptual understanding of the methods of the tradition and Buddhist teachings more generally, and so on.
"The Way needs no cultivation, just do not defile. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived way, then everything is a defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: Ordinary Mind is the Way!"

- Record of Ma-tsu

Spike
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Spike » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:20 pm

bukowski wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:27 pm
Hi spike.

My practice was the same, but their were causes and conditions that led me to Buddhism, and I certainly made a distinct choice to continue with it, sit with a group, etc.

Metta, b. :namaste:
Hold the branch, release the branch?
Does a dog have buddha nature or not?

Making a (distinct) choice is discriminating mind to be gone beyond in practice.

In everyday life, fortunately, we mostly get a "pass".
Meido Moore's monastery and contact info:
www.korinji.org

Genjo Marinello's temple and contact info:
https://choboji.org/

Seeker242
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Seeker242 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:29 pm

loves' the unjust wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:55 pm
Question:

Does anyone who say I understand zen

understand zen?
Maybe! Depends on the person's understanding. :lol:

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clyde
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by clyde » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:52 pm

Here is how Guo Gu explains “discriminating mind”:
“All of the teachings in Chan and buddhadharma expose the truth about delusion, which is fueled by the discursive, discriminating mind. The discriminating mind is not your intelligence—you need that. Nor does it refer to our ability to distinguish between this and that, which is a natural function of mind. The discriminating mind is self-referential thinking—the assumption that there is an abiding, separate, independent “I” residing within you”

- from Passing Through the Gatelss Barrier, Case 1 Zhaozhou’s Dog
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”

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loves' the unjust
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by loves' the unjust » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:28 pm

be free - stay free
cooper

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Nothing
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Nothing » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:32 pm

clyde wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:52 pm
Here is how Guo Gu explains “discriminating mind”:
“All of the teachings in Chan and buddhadharma expose the truth about delusion, which is fueled by the discursive, discriminating mind. The discriminating mind is not your intelligence—you need that. Nor does it refer to our ability to distinguish between this and that, which is a natural function of mind. The discriminating mind is self-referential thinking—the assumption that there is an abiding, separate, independent “I” residing within you”

- from Passing Through the Gatelss Barrier, Case 1 Zhaozhou’s Dog
Great explanation , thanks for sharing Clyde

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[james]
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by [james] » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:57 pm

Spike wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:33 pm
What is the choice? There is no choice, because if you choose, you die.

Just do zazen!
Until death arrives there is always choice, whether or not you take it up.
Falling to death ... do I hit the ground with mind and senses open, experiencing to the last moment?
Do I try to be in some kind of wishful samadhi?
Do I shut down and blank out?
...

Yes, just do the zazen of every moment which now happens to be falling to your death.

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Nothing
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Re: Mumonkan Case 5

Post by Nothing » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:58 pm

Here is a teisho from Zenkei Shibayama on Case 5

Image Image Image Image Image

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