clyde wrote: ↑
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:11 pm
And while I practice and encourage others to practice, there are people who have awakened spontaneously; i.e., without any practice.
Though they may be FEW -- very few -- their un-practiced putative awakening has thus probably not been confirmed by an accomplished teacher, which, in the Ch'an and Zen sects, is de rigueur
Thus -- I'd say -- such claims are specious, unless somehow substantiated. Anyway, it is not "awakening" as understood and valued in the Ch'an/Zen (etc.), sects, because THAT requires inspection, testing, and confirmation by one who is familiar with all the vicissitudes.
Though, Clyde, can you substantiate your claims of those "awakening spontaneously", please? No? Else, it's hot air.
But, our/your topic is still "grace", and I assume you mean "gratuitous-grace".
That may be a category in some religions, but I think not in Ch'an and Zen, as I have written. Practice is of the essence (and correct
practice, at that, we learn). Guided by an accomplished teacher. There should be no doubt about this, among practitioners in our school.
Granted, there are "Outer-paths", other ways, other Religions, which are not Ch'an, not Zen. Maybe these Outer-paths encompass and host such unsubstantiated "awakenings": I suspect so. There's no reason to think otherwise, since they are, by your definition, not an outcome of practice in Ch'an or Zen circles. Let them be examined by a Ch'an-, Zen-, Son-, Thien- Buddhist teacher. This is the way to be safe, and to remain on-topic, here, in a Zen Buddhist forum.
But the hypothetical, non-practicing, putatively-"awakenened" person may not be amenable to meeting someone truly awakened, to have a reality-check. Alas. It takes some affinity, as we know.
After awakening, a new phase of practice may be begun, guided by the teacher. This is not to be missed, for those Ch'an/Zen practitioners who may be interested. But such people -- here, and everywhere -- probably already know this.