How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

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How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

I think the Forum is doing just fine and don't have any major suggestions for change.
12
18%
The Forum is quite OK, but a few things could be better (see below for a list of suggestions to vote on).
9
14%
The Forum, as it stands, is not great. Major changes are needed (see below for a list of suggestions to vote on).
4
6%
I don't hold much hope for this place.
1
2%
Suggestion 1: Moderation is too lax and needs to come down on the time-wasters and the rudeness.
13
20%
Suggestion 2: Moderation is too strict and needs to lay off and let posts and threads be.
2
3%
Suggestion 3: The conversation is dominated by the same voices and I can't really relate to it very much.
5
8%
Suggestion 4: I wish Teachers and more experienced folks chimed in more.
9
14%
Suggestion 5: I wish there were fewer "Teachers" and people setting others straight. I feel too intimidated by the self-appointed heavy-weights to join in the conversation or ask something.
3
5%
Suggestion 6: I don't see the relevance of a lot of what is said to Zen or to my life and practice.
7
11%
 
Total votes: 65

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boda
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by boda » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:58 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:40 pm
2- There is some discernment by moderators between legitimate "Zen speak" and being a bit Koany, and just "muu goo bus orange" babbling on and weirdness. Sorry, but the latter tends to predominate sometimes, and I think the Zen masters of old would have tossed such folks out of the room. I love some creativity and humorous poetic expression as much as the next person, but it tends to dominate this forum and just is a mess. I think our moderators are experienced enough in Zen Practice to know the difference between "sound of one hand clapping" and "Is a bus a business or a bushel of oranges, let's discuss." Also, much flexibility in what is "Zen" and "Buddha," although not beyond the breaking point of "everything is Zen" so one can say anything.
Truth is there is no difference between being “a bit koany” and being “muu goo bus orange.” The mere fact that you need to exaggerate the latter is telling in itself. I know you won’t believe me when I say that there is no value in being a bit koany, other than perhaps a little self gratification.

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jundocohen
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:04 am

bodhi wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:58 pm

Truth is there is no difference between being “a bit koany” and being “muu goo bus orange.”
I feel that the more experienced old hands here know the difference.

And, yes, there are times to be a bit "Koany" in language as ordinary words, and ordinary logical statements, just don't cover it.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:12 am

I'd enjoy to see a skype practise session for ppl to sit together, instead of only the wordy-business. Doesn't treeleaf already do that? Would be nice if we can join forces, maybe sometimes even different teachers can sound the bell for different "methods" of practises.
Last edited by fuki on Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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boda
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by boda » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:04 am
And, yes, there are times to be a bit "Koany" in language as ordinary words, and ordinary logical statements, just don't cover it.
This implies you believe that words, in some configuration, cover it. You could not be more wrong.

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:16 am

bodhi wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:27 pm

Speaking of common metaphorical sense, is this place the college or the ‘Zen Lounge,’ down the street from the college?
What does your ideal Zen Forum look like?
Good question. It looks just like the Zen Lounge.
Haha, lovely.
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jundocohen
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 am

bodhi wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:04 am
And, yes, there are times to be a bit "Koany" in language as ordinary words, and ordinary logical statements, just don't cover it.
This implies you believe that words, in some configuration, cover it. You could not be more wrong.
Dogen believed that well chosen words sometimes cover it (even if the kind of Koany language he was famous for), and sometimes silence ... and sometimes "ordinary" speech and sometimes rather twisted grammar forms or allusions ... and sometimes nothing covers it ... and sometimes nothing needs to be covered at all. If one only sees things one way, one is partly blind.

Ya see, there is an example right in that sentence! :hatsoff:

However, while IT is even in "muu goo bus orange," nonetheless "muu goo bus orange" is not IT! (A Koan)

Gassho, J

PS - Yes, Treeleaf have online 2way/1way video sittings, easy to set up.

(Ordinary grammar sentence which say it all too!)
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:36 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 am

PS - Yes, Treeleaf have online 2way/1way video sittings, easy to set up.
Ok would be nice...perhaps Dan can start a poll if there's any demand for it.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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desert_woodworker
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:42 am

Formally taught and self taught is not a big difference.

Everyone who "sticks with" anything formally-taught realizes (and remembers) that much of the discipline (field; endeavor; skill; craft) must be self-taught, even under the "formally-taught" aegis. That's just the way Humans are built. Yes, you can be an apprentice under a master craftsperson, but your learning under the master is by your own practice and your own tinkering at the edges of your skill and technic.

The same is true in physical Yoga: one is always working "at your edge". Breaking new ground all the time, is what I encourage in my Yoga students, as a matter of fact.

Another area is meditation, or, lets say, zazen. Aitken Roshi said: "Zazen teaches zazen". Hmpf... . Yes, you can receive general directions and encouragement, and specific regular course-corrections and tweaks from your Master, but the corrections must be implemented, and one must oneself find a way to implement them, even if this sometimes means finding a way to stand out of the way so they may fall into place.

I enjoy seeing master musicians hold "Master Class", where willing students (who are VERY good, themselves) submit to learning from an established master of an instrument, on a certain piece of composed music. Wonderful to see and experience such "transmission". It's life-changing. And very moving to observe, even as an outsider. Human relations is/are what makes it happen. You cannot do this on your own, although you can not be taught it, either.

Good to see you posting,

--Joe

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boda
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by boda » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:58 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 am
bodhi wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:13 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:04 am
And, yes, there are times to be a bit "Koany" in language as ordinary words, and ordinary logical statements, just don't cover it.
This implies you believe that words, in some configuration, cover it. You could not be more wrong.
Dogen believed that well chosen words sometimes cover it (even if the kind of Koany language he was famous for), and sometimes silence ... and sometimes "ordinary" speech and sometimes rather twisted grammar forms or allusions ... and sometimes nothing covers it ... and sometimes nothing needs to be covered at all. If one only sees things one way, one is partly blind.

If one sees something the wrong way, one is wrong.

And who is one, by the way? :lol: And no, that’s not a koany.

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boda
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by boda » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:04 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:36 am
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 am

PS - Yes, Treeleaf have online 2way/1way video sittings, easy to set up.
Ok would be nice...perhaps Dan can start a poll if there's any demand for it.
Why don’t you just go to TreeLeaf.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by desert_woodworker » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:18 am

Jundo,
jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:22 am
If one only sees things one way, one is partly blind.
Um-m, it's good. I used to like to say, "Blinded by a View".

--Joe

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jundocohen
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:27 am

bodhi wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:04 am

Why don’t you just go to TreeLeaf.
Because people here don't just sit Shikantaza, and that is what we sit in our community. Here, folks from a variety of Zen/Chan/Son/Thien traditions might wish to sit together.

As to "self-taught" ... I agree that is great, and in the end, even a student of somebody "formally" must do all the heavy lifting (and sitting) themself.

However, Middle Way here ...

One does not come to a baseball field when folks are to be playing some baseball, and start kicking a football. It does not matter if the person is a "formal" baseball student or a self taught natural or weekend amateur. Both the formal students and self taught folks are welcome to pick up a bat and hit some balls in our friendly, "pick up" game around here. But baseball still has some structure and some ways and rules. The umpires should make sure that folks are still playing the same game. Our "umpire/moderators" here are discerning enough to recognize who is tossing a fast ball, and who is making dunks with a basketball. I.e., who is still "in the ballpark." :D

Also, anyone rude should be tossed out.



Yes, each of baseball, football and basketball are wonderful sports, but in a baseball place one plays baseball.

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundocohen on Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:47 am, edited 5 times in total.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

bodhi wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:04 am
Why don’t you just go to TreeLeaf.
Because it's about zenspace not about my comings and goings. El G used to set up a together sitting thingy where you could leave the time you sit and it did motivate ppl to sit together. Was just inserting the same idea but then via webcam.
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lindama
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by lindama » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am

what is meant by "being a bit koany"? it sounds like wise guy zen stuff??? it gives koans a bad name... not that she would care...

Koans are not koany as far as I can see....


ps... if I remember, there was one online meditation event at zfi

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:32 am

jundocohen wrote:
Because people here don't just sit Shikantaza, and that is what we sit in our community. Here, folks from a variety of traditions might wish to sit together.
Actually if you'd post the links to sitting here people might join, but I understand if it's part of the internal treeleaf org too. Or do you have people from "outside" joining too?
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jundocohen
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:39 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am
what is meant by "being a bit koany"? it sounds like wise guy zen stuff??? it gives koans a bad name... not that she would care...

Koans are not koany as far as I can see....


ps... if I remember, there was one online meditation event at zfi
Only a good meaning was intended. In Soto, we honor Koans too and our Dogen often spoken in his wisely-weird Koany way. I think my point on "Zen speak" was clear to most folks who can tell the difference between MU and Moo.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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jundocohen
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by jundocohen » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 am

fuki wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:32 am

Actually if you'd post the links to sitting here people might join, but I understand if it's part of the internal treeleaf org too. Or do you have people from "outside" joining too?
People sitting with us at Treeleaf are usually sitting Shikantaza Zazen and practicing with us, and we request that they be sitting at least once a day Shikantaza in the way we encourage at Treeleaf.

That being said, anyone who would do that is welcome, and we have a bunch of folks who combine their Shikantaza with other paths too from Christians Zennies to Pure Land Zennies to folks who do a little Tibetan Tonglen on the side (we actually have a Tonglen practice group at Treeleaf) to banjo playing Zennies to ice cream eating Zennies to I don't know what ... and don't exclusively practice at our place ...

... but when with us, they sit Shikantaza, and we ask that they do so in the style of our place once a day.

Here would be people from a whole variety of Zen/Chan/Son/Thien Traditions coming together.

Gassho, J
Last edited by jundocohen on Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:56 am

lindama wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:30 am
it gives koans a bad name
Who wouldn't spontaneously burst out laughing at their own emptiness being comfortable with that paradox, koans are kind of jokes afterall.
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Let that tail wave, smiling, beckoning to itself. :cat:
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fuki
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by fuki » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:05 am

jundocohen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 am
... but when with us, they sit Shikantaza, and we ask that they do so in the style of our place once a day.

Here would be people from a whole variety of Zen/Chan/Son/Thien Traditions coming together.
Ah yes, though I suspect most people sit 'zazen' here.
It's mostly about the "conditions" at first I think instead of the "method" but it's worth a shot, that is if others also feel so. Then again not many ideas gain traction here (remember that zen introduction thread?)

complaining to mods in pm about others while having no input/creativity themselves does seem popular
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lindama
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Re: How is Zen Space doing - a poll for all members, active, inactive, lurkers, come one, come all!

Post by lindama » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:05 am

Fuki, it's us who is the joke

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