the desire to have children

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bukowski
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by bukowski » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm

Hi fuki.
I think everyone has different reasons for wanting kids. I was nearly 40 when we had our son oli. I think my wife and i slowly came to the conclusion that our relationship was at a stage where it was strong and loving, we were both well, regarding physical and mental health, we had travelled and done lots of things we wanted to and we were both pretty comfortable in our own skins. If ever their was a time for us to try to bring a young person into the world, and support that person and give them a good chance of being a kind and deccent person and an asset to society it was now.
Of course it doesn't always work that way. So far so good.
And of course oli is the greatest thing that has ever happened to us, and completed our family. As jundo says its not all roses, but it's always fun.

Hope that helps.

Metta, bukowski. :namaste:

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fuki
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:34 pm

Thank you very much, Bukowski, Egon, Mike, and previous contributors.
Very happy and helpful to read all personal experiences. :)
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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egon
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by egon » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:11 am

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:34 pm
Thank you very much, Bukowski, Egon, Mike, and previous contributors.
Very happy and helpful to read all personal experiences. :)
I'm happy that you got something out of it. I hoped that someone might.

Another thing to consider, from a more directly Buddhist point of view... I saw someone on another forum who I believe is a Theravadan monk weigh in on this. He said that choosing not to have children is irresponsible because each new person is a vessel for rebirth. If you don't have kids you're standing in the way of that. I don't agree at all and I was going to ask him if his vow of celibacy was irresponsible, but he had already quit the forum apparently.

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by Great Sage EofH » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:52 am

Now that we are throwing children into concentration camps this old thread's got new life! I pity the fool who thinks that the course of nature/nurture will have to turn out to be Liberty and Justice for All. But please prove to me that I'm a liar.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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fuki
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:18 pm

egon wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:11 am

I'm happy that you got something out of it. I hoped that someone might.

Another thing to consider, from a more directly Buddhist point of view... I saw someone on another forum who I believe is a Theravadan monk weigh in on this. He said that choosing not to have children is irresponsible because each new person is a vessel for rebirth. If you don't have kids you're standing in the way of that. I don't agree at all and I was going to ask him if his vow of celibacy was irresponsible, but he had already quit the forum apparently.
People have quit the imagination (or religious conditioning)
I'd told the monk that his so called arrival in this world is conceptual, just like any other form. In my view less human animals and more non-human animals, trees/insects etc is better for the health and balance of the Earth then more humans, with our "current" drive of greed and destruction there will be a day when their won't be any human "vessels" to appear on this planet at least. Besides "life" isn't dependend on vehicles, water is still water even if their are no containers where the water can mistakenly identify with its form, forgets it's water and have religious fantasies about it's previous or next vessel. It's all based on fear and body identity what the monk said, so much for the true message of "Buddhism"

Saying it's irresponsible to not have children sounds very old fashioned and even creationist to these ears.
The monk doesn't count (in his view I guess) because he gave his life in service of the dharma....
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
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Emmet
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by Emmet » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:19 pm

1.6 million children in America are homeless.
400,540 American children are in foster care.
16.4 million American children live in poverty; one in five.
16 million American children struggle with hunger; one in five.
Every year, 3.8 million American children are victims of child abuse. 1,640 are killed.
Every year, 10,000 American children are shot.
2,600 of them are killed.
Globally, a child dies every ten seconds from hunger or preventable disease, while eight individuals hoard more wealth than half of humanity; 4 billion people.
Over 90% of the casualties of modern warfare are civilian. During the last ten years, 2 million children have been killed, 4-5 million children disabled, 12 million children left homeless, more than one million children orphaned, and 10 million children psychologically traumatized.
Anthropogenic climate change, the concomitant Anthropocene Mass Extinction Event, overexploitation of natural resources, overpopulation, and the resultant wars over ever-dwindling resources will certainly result in the very near future in a Malthusian Check to the human population beyond most human comprehension, perhaps even extinction as a species.
Considering how catastrophically and irreparably we have betrayed our children and all future generations, I personally cannot imagine a rational argument for bringing one more into this world.
If you want to have a positive effect on a child's life, try to do something to try and mitigate the suffering of those already here.

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egon
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by egon » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:15 am

Emmet, I respect your opinion and see your point. However, as my kids are gradually, responsibly, and mindfully made aware of the problems in the world, they will have already been shown, little by little, the value in and opportunity to be instrumental in suffering reduction. We're volunteering at a farm sanctuary this Sunday, in fact. Probably not gonna make a dent on the refugee crisis by Monday, but the pigs'll be stoked as always. The butterfly's wings are flapping, my friend.
Plus, if I hadn't had kids I'd probably still be the nihlistic asshole I was 20 years ago. Believe me, that wouldn't have done the world any favors.

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bukowski
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by bukowski » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:19 am

And of course there is love, joy, beauty and infinite compassion on this planet as well. New life means new hope and opitimism for an increase in all of these good things. Our generation, and generations that preceeded it have made something of a mess. Who knows, maybe the next generation can start clearing up some of this mess.

Metta, bukowski, :110:

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egon
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by egon » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:25 pm

bukowski wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:19 am
And of course there is love, joy, beauty and infinite compassion on this planet as well. New life means new hope and opitimism for an increase in all of these good things. Our generation, and generations that preceeded it have made something of a mess. Who knows, maybe the next generation can start clearing up some of this mess.

Metta, bukowski, :110:
I hear ya buddy. The middle way, the acceptance of reality, the jettisoning of delusion... Inherent in these is the acknowledgement of beauty, joy, and compassion along with all of the suffering. I won't ever criticize anyone for not having kids. And maybe at the core of my decision to do so is just a monkey mind and it's need to propogate, but sapience is a funny thing, and mine is happy to be a guide for a couple of little humans.

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fuki
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by fuki » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:47 pm

egon wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:25 pm
I hear ya buddy. The middle way, the acceptance of reality, the jettisoning of delusion... Inherent in these is the acknowledgement of beauty, joy, and compassion along with all of the suffering. I won't ever criticize anyone for not having kids. And maybe at the core of my decision to do so is just a monkey mind and it's need to propogate, but sapience is a funny thing, and mine is happy to be a guide for a couple of little humans.
It's heart warming to see loving parent "raising" children in a healthy enviroment, though most parents who have kids aren't ready for them sadly, since they're not mature enough themselves for such a responsibility, a parent really needs to be selfless and have no psychological issues which stand in the way of the immense responsibility it is 'having' kids. For instance I see many people in relationships saying cliche stuff like "oh fighting/arguing is part of a relationship" this makes me sad because I see the direct impact and long lasting effects it has on a child. I even don't allow humans to be vexated in my home because I have pets. It's very good to wait until both lovers are truly ready, but since having kids often is a craving to fill a void, or to cover up a feeling of loneliness or another emotional contraction in the psyche the results are for from loving or healthy. I once got a kid request from the first girlfriend, I couldn't believe she asked me. I was totally not ready to have such a responsibility eventhough I was a 1000 procent more mature then her or my own parents for instance. Please don't fight in front of kids, or dogs, or cats etc.
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egon
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by egon » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:13 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:47 pm
It's heart warming to see loving parent "raising" children in a healthy enviroment, though most parents who have kids aren't ready for them sadly, since they're not mature enough themselves for such a responsibility, a parent really needs to be selfless and have no psychological issues which stand in the way of the immense responsibility it is 'having' kids. For instance I see many people in relationships saying cliche stuff like "oh fighting/arguing is part of a relationship" this makes me sad because I see the direct impact and long lasting effects it has on a child. I even don't allow humans to be vexated in my home because I have pets. It's very good to wait until both lovers are truly ready, but since having kids often is a craving to fill a void, or to cover up a feeling of loneliness or another emotional contraction in the psyche the results are for from loving or healthy. I once got a kid request from the first girlfriend, I couldn't believe she asked me. I was totally not ready to have such a responsibility eventhough I was a 1000 procent more mature then her or my own parents for instance. Please don't fight in front of kids, or dogs, or cats etc.
@fuki- my wife and I are far from perfect. We've definitely argued in front of our kids and pets. That behavior is one of the primary driving forces behind both of our current spiritual journeys. Our kids are 6 and 4, and about a year ago we all collaborated on a set of basic family rules that each one of us is responsible for both upholding and pointing out when the rules have been ignored. The rules are posted in most of the rooms in our house, and my kids, of course, got to decorate the paper extensively 😊. When I or my wife are politely reminded by our kids that we have spoken in an unkind way, it is a truly profound eye opener- a beautiful and humbling experience.
As I said in an earlier post, if I hadn't had kids, I would probably still be smoking weed all day, wallowing in self-absorbed existential nihlism; and my wife would probably still be unable to handle the rage that stems from her PTSD that is related to her abusive upbringing.
I credit my meditation practice for aiding me in developing the skill to fill the space between stimulus and response with compassion instead of indignant defensiveness.
I've said it before on other forums, and I'll say it again here: enlightenment? I dunno. Freedom? I dunno. Rebirth? Very implausible. All I know is practicing the dharma reduces my tendency to act like an asshole.

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KeithA
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by KeithA » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:05 pm

egon wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:13 pm
fuki wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:47 pm
It's heart warming to see loving parent "raising" children in a healthy enviroment, though most parents who have kids aren't ready for them sadly, since they're not mature enough themselves for such a responsibility, a parent really needs to be selfless and have no psychological issues which stand in the way of the immense responsibility it is 'having' kids. For instance I see many people in relationships saying cliche stuff like "oh fighting/arguing is part of a relationship" this makes me sad because I see the direct impact and long lasting effects it has on a child. I even don't allow humans to be vexated in my home because I have pets. It's very good to wait until both lovers are truly ready, but since having kids often is a craving to fill a void, or to cover up a feeling of loneliness or another emotional contraction in the psyche the results are for from loving or healthy. I once got a kid request from the first girlfriend, I couldn't believe she asked me. I was totally not ready to have such a responsibility eventhough I was a 1000 procent more mature then her or my own parents for instance. Please don't fight in front of kids, or dogs, or cats etc.
@fuki- my wife and I are far from perfect. We've definitely argued in front of our kids and pets. That behavior is one of the primary driving forces behind both of our current spiritual journeys. Our kids are 6 and 4, and about a year ago we all collaborated on a set of basic family rules that each one of us is responsible for both upholding and pointing out when the rules have been ignored. The rules are posted in most of the rooms in our house, and my kids, of course, got to decorate the paper extensively 😊. When I or my wife are politely reminded by our kids that we have spoken in an unkind way, it is a truly profound eye opener- a beautiful and humbling experience.
As I said in an earlier post, if I hadn't had kids, I would probably still be smoking weed all day, wallowing in self-absorbed existential nihlism; and my wife would probably still be unable to handle the rage that stems from her PTSD that is related to her abusive upbringing.
I credit my meditation practice for aiding me in developing the skill to fill the space between stimulus and response with compassion instead of indignant defensiveness.
I've said it before on other forums, and I'll say it again here: enlightenment? I dunno. Freedom? I dunno. Rebirth? Very implausible. All I know is practicing the dharma reduces my tendency to act like an asshole.
Wonderful posting!

(emphasis mine and I would throw the rebirth thing in the "I dunno" column. Frankly, I don't see how any of this works without it, but since there is no way of knowing, I will stick with I dunno.)

_/|\_

Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

ol' spikey

Re: the desire to have children

Post by ol' spikey » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:19 am

My daughter is 29. She is the "product" of a loving relationship, not precision-planned. She is in a Doctor of Physical Therapy program, a wonderful helping profession. I don't believe my wife and I, at the time, were too immature or unworthy to birth and raise her. My wife had all the positive sensibilities of a great Jewish mom. As a lapsed Catholic, practicing Buddhist, and student of psychology, not to mention veteran cross-country hitchhiker, I felt I was on the right track as a father. I recognized as I became a psychothetapist at a Youth and Family Services bureau that many parents were capable of the great leap of asking for help. Of course, some were mandated to do so, mostly with good results. But the core of good intentions and love, regardless of maturity, were inspiring to me. And their learning process, just like mine, I believe was to be expected, and well worth it.

Understanding just a little about my own eventual demise, I have faith in the new people to carry on.

P S. I call bs on "death as a time to smile".

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boda
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by boda » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:33 am

Neither my wife or I ever had the desire and we never had any. Also, we’ve never regretted it. The end. :)

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egon
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Re: the desire to have children

Post by egon » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:47 am

"I don't have kids. What I do have is the spare time and disposable income to pursue my dreams."
- Hannibal Burress

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