Okay, let me make this simple for my and your benefit and others ...desert_woodworker wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:59 pmHi, Roshi,
Jundo, no, I don't say those things.
I say however, and repeat again, that the Dogen Apologists do not admit that their claims (etc.) are made from the point of view of awakening, from "body and mind fallen away" (fallen-away at least in Master Dogen, as confirmed by Dogen's Ch'an master; if not in themselves).
I think Dogen is fine. And shikantaza is fine (it has been my practice for 4.0 decades). It's Dogen's apologists who are disingenuous, and, in my opinion, ceaselessly tend to give Dogen a bad name. Let Dogen speak for himself! All the apologia is too much, but not even too much of a good thing. It may be a Cottage-Industry, but that makes the Apologists' scriblings and sayings even that much worse, in my eyes. Peace, already... .
YES, what you say is true, BUT ...
In Shikantaza one does not get the awakening first and then experiences Shikantaza. Instead, one enacts/pretends/sits through faith in such manner like a method actor (Taigen Leighton calls this an " enactment ritual") ...
http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/art ... ent_ritual)
... convincing oneself through faith and method acting that "Zazen is complete, the one place to be and act needed in the universe." One also sits dropping judgments except the subtly positive nature of Zazen (like the subtly positive nature of reality, again through faith and pretending if necessary). not grabbing thoughts ... radically dropping all goals besides sitting itself as the pinnacle of existence (again, a matter of faith and self-convincing at first) ...
... and, ipso facto, like the case of a method actor playing "Hamlet" who actually comes to embody Hamlet (or a Tibetan practitioner visualizing Taira who comes to life as Taira) ... one hypnotizes oneself into making such facts real. In other words, by truly feeling and believing so, it becomes a fact that there is no other place or act, and sitting is the pinnacle. As other desires and judgments are dropped away besides sitting, and as thoughts of before or after and other things are dropped away, we say that "sitting sits sitting" or "body mind dropped away."
You simply have the equation backwards, Joe, horse before the cart, by your insisting that "body mind dropped away" must come at the start for Shikataza to work.
I call it a "non-self fulfilling prophesy" in which the embodiment and goallessness fill one and flow as one and are experienced as reality. One might say that one catches on and catches up to what has been truth all along, and faith proves out. It is not that one must first realize truth and then experience Shikantaza as you say.
I hope that is clearer now.
In other words, "Fake it timelessly until 'you' make-non-make 'it'".
I personally believe that turning so-called "Shikantaza" into just "following the breath, dropping thoughts and goals" and little more (unfortunately, what is so often taught as "Shikantaza" these days), or a vehicle for realizing deep concentration or Samadhi states (although they happen in the above) or intense "sweat from the brow" Koan Introspection for Kensho (a good practice for some in its own right, I am sure, and I also believe that holding a Koan phrase can itself be Shikantaza if merely employed as a place to hold the mind lightly and goallessly like the breath or posture) misdirect from the above Shikantaza and its power.