Never Surrender!

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

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boda
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:04 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:43 pm
I can't match your muckraking.
I only briefly mentioned various cases of abuse to point out an issue that you seem to deny. A real muckraker would accuse you of complicity. I would never do that.

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:10 pm

Nah, muckrakers just rake muck; it's what they know how to do. --Joe

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:12 pm

boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:58 pm
You are conflating "abuse" (as you called it) with surrender.

Uh, no. The implication is that guru worship (yes yes, not traditional Zen) makes abuse a possibility. Power corrupts and all that jazz. Get it now?
I suppose that yes, this may be the implication to you, in your way of thinking. I myself do not and did not conflate the two.

I point out that in Zen Buddhist practice, surrender is not part of the system of training, while in some Hindu circles, it appears to be. That is all.

I think what you're interested in here is dirt, and muckraking. You should be either a farmer, or a sewage-treatment technician; both important jobs! (and one pretty much the inverse of the other). Also, According to the (USA) EPA, about half of all sewage sludge is applied to land, but it is only applied to about one percent of the nation's farmland.

--Joe

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Larry
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:14 am

Finally had the stamina to watch the whole video. I found the most interesting angle to be....should Zen, and could Zen, be "codified"?

They could get Trump's lawyers to work on it :lol:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:27 pm

hi, Larry,

Haven't mustered the mustard to look at even one second; I don't know the fellow from Adam.

Besides, we're (I'm... ) not here to converse with a fellow in a video (and we can't really do it). But, if the OP has something to assert, aver, inquire about, or even declaim, let it be in the OP's own voice, handwriting, typography, not in some unknown surrogates'. Ho-hum... . (Also, life is short: those may be 13 (?) minutes that you might never get back again! :sad: ).

best,

--Joe

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Larry
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:58 pm

Yes, I was initially reluctant to watch for the very same reasons.

Caodemarte
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:59 pm

A number of the more obvious off topic posts removed. It is not fun to do this, but off topic posts destroy a conversation and make the forum unappealing for others.

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lindama
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by lindama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:40 am

WOW!

First, this is an issue for Zen and any tradition.... let's put our feet on the ground and walk. I've seen it covered up, processed in public, break apart sanghas in several traditions. no blame.

Second, what is the problem with the video besides the obvious pre-dispostions of the observers. I don't take it as crap or marketing...... or muckracking. wow, a bit of that in this thread. The guitar maybe corny, I'll give him that.... what about what he said????? It's zen to me. No punk there... only in my nail polish which is called Punky Pinky. lol

Third, The remarks about codified are part of the fall out from the Eido, et al scandals... where the 66 zen teachers wrote a letter and then started to form an organization for ethics policing.... which by the way, I oppose. how ridiculous. They think it would work? What would it create? zen police.

Fourth, we're between a rock and a hard place with this issue. walk away, many can't.... where is the heartedness about this. As I remember, ZFI was close to 4,000 posts on this issue when it was locked. Everyone suffers, the victim, the perpetrator, the exiles. The dharma is untouchable tho.

True surrender happens on the inner plane, to oneself.... The territory of true power drives and abuse. :111:

I can't muster up more.... I said it all years ago on ZFI. Can't take prisoners on this one.

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lindama
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by lindama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:32 am

going beyond Brad .... from DW

it exists.... it's not limited to Vajrayana.... July 4, 2018.... as Tsultrim says, "it's not just this community, it's all over zen, it's all over the Catholic Church" Tsultrim talks about.... "what can I bring back"

Wise woman will lead the way....


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michaeljc
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by michaeljc » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:01 am

I point out that in Zen Buddhist practice, surrender is not part of the system of training,
Joe - To me, surrender is an integral foundation of zen practice. It is linked to the elimination of ego

also -

trust requires surrender, what?

It is, as Linda points out, to do with self, not one's teacher

cheers

m

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Larry
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:54 am

lindama wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:40 am
Second, what is the problem with the video besides the obvious pre-dispostions of the observers. I don't take it as crap or marketing...... or muckracking. wow, a bit of that in this thread. The guitar maybe corny, I'll give him that.... what about what he said????? It's zen to me. No punk there... only in my nail polish which is called Punky Pinky. lol

Can't take prisoners on this one.
Go Linda! :D

*puts on slightly defensive hat*

I only meant his guitar playing was crap....not his words. And it was in the context of bantering with the recently departed boda. I even wrote "Within the context of Zen, I agree with Brad".

And you have to admit that Brad, generally, is pretty good at slightly controversial "marketing".

"It's all over Zen". Really?

Sure is a topic that always pushes your buttons.

Would love to see some shots of your Punky Pinky :lol:
Last edited by Larry on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lindama
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by lindama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:05 pm

No worries Larry .... I'm terrible with nuances in jokes. :waving:

Here's punky pinky.... as I sit at my monitor, I can reach out to my left and touch my altar which at times is multi-functional. Space at a premium, a small table which serves as an extension of desk is in front of altar. About as integrated as it comes on the physical plane anyway. :117:

Punky Pinky.jpg
Punky Pinky.jpg (1003.87 KiB) Viewed 558 times

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Larry
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:32 pm

Nice shot.

Note to No-self. Don't forget the "High Road to China" :D

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:27 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:01 am
I point out that in Zen Buddhist practice, surrender is not part of the system of training,
Joe - To me, surrender is an integral foundation of zen practice. It is linked to the elimination of ego
Hmm, I don't know what an "integral foundation" is. And many seem to be doing alright without (?) it. So... .

Michael, I'd say there's no surrender to Teacher, which is what some people in the thread seem to take as the thrust of the thread.

I think that's what most of us have been talking about.

I think the OP's concern is about teacher-MISBEHAVIOR, though, frankly; so, his/her fixation is a far different one from the posted and advertised thread-title. But we've dealt with this kind of fakery before, in stellar fashion.

As for the ego thing you mention, I'd say that "elimination" of "ego" is a result, not a resolution, and not a "surrender" that one resolves to perform. This is, I think, also the view of most Zen Buddhists modernly, and anciently. If it happens, it happens. If not, it's all freaking fakery. Indeed... .

Note, too, it is NOT one of the four Great Bodhisattva vows, to, er-r, ..."eliminate ego". It just happens, as one practices correctly.

A resolution to "eliminate ego", or to be more technically correct, eliminate Life's control by a presumed separate-self, is another action of ...ego.

Instead, it happens -- may!, happen -- naturally, at awakening. One notes that "it" simply is not there, in the clear and free Emptiness, and that, finally, true Wisdom and true Compassion can arise naturally, and that they DO, how wonderful and miraculous!

As I see it.

best,

--Joe

Seeker242
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:03 pm

lindama wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:40 am
WOW!

First, this is an issue for Zen and any tradition.... let's put our feet on the ground and walk. I've seen it covered up, processed in public, break apart sanghas in several traditions.
Of course it's an issue. If it wasn't, then no teacher would have been able to get away with misbehavior. "Surrendering" to teachers, even though it is not actually a part of zen practice, is what has allowed teachers to get away with abusive behavior. It doesn't matter is it's not part of actual zen practice, it still happens anyway. Therefore, it is certainly an issue.

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KeithA
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by KeithA » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:32 pm

Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:03 pm
lindama wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:40 am
WOW!

First, this is an issue for Zen and any tradition.... let's put our feet on the ground and walk. I've seen it covered up, processed in public, break apart sanghas in several traditions.


Of course it's an issue. If it wasn't, then no teacher would have been able to get away with misbehavior. "Surrendering" to teachers, even though it is not actually a part of zen practice, is what has allowed teachers to get away with abusive behavior. It doesn't matter is it's not part of actual zen practice, it still happens anyway. Therefore, it is certainly an issue.
I recall having a similar discussion at ZFI. The good Reverend Nonin was pretty adamant about the need to "submit" to the teacher. "Surrender" sounds similar. I personally prefer "trust". If I didn't trust my teacher, I would find another one.

Words like surrender and submit suggest to me giving up one's autonomy. Not really a fan of that idea!

Something from Dosho Port, talking about an old Kwan Um chestnut:
Recently a student has become aware of how he has been doing his practice – in part – in an effort to please me. This is something students often go through, including myself with Katagiri-roshi. It can be an important part of finding one’s own feet and then standing up and walking as a free person.

Zen is meant to help us break our chains, sometimes through the skillful means of tightening them so that they catch our attention. Sometimes by illuminating those that can be broken only through becoming one with them – life and death, for example.

In Soto Zen the teacher-student relationship is much like the master-apprentice relationship in the arts or building trades. Only through closely following the master’s way and then going beyond it can we ourselves “…walk free with even steps across the blue sky.”

Many years ago I heard a story on tape by Bobbi Rhodes, now the head of the Kwan Um Zen School (pictured above), that points to one important movement in the teacher-student relationship. The story stuck with me and goes something like this:

A Zen student had heard that a certain Zen master had the true dharma. This student could think of nothing other than receiving the true dharma from this master and so he traveled many miles to the Zen master’s monastery and requested an interview.

The Zen master welcomed him and asked, “What have you come here for?”

“I’ve come,” said the student, “in order to receive your dharma.”


“Well, you can’t just expect me to give something so valuable to you, an ungrateful person who has not even made an offering,” said the master. “Now get out!”
The student went away and sat for several days, planning how he could make an offering so he could get the master’s dharma. Finally he was able to pull together a large sum of money from the resources of friends and family members.

He went back to the master and presented the money and asked, “May I now receive your dharma, please.”

The master shouted, “Get out! My dharma is not for sale.”

The student went away and again sat for days, trying to find an appropriate offering. Then one day he thought that he knew what the master wanted so he returned.

“I’ve come to offer my body,” he said.

Again the master shouted, “What need have I for that stinking skin bag! Get out!”

Again the student went away and sat for days, trying to think of an appropriate offering. Again, one day he thought that he knew what the master wanted so he returned.

“I’ve come to offer you my mind,” he said.

But the master said, “What need have I for a dim mind like yours. Get out!”

The student had finally had it and jumped to his feet and shouted back, “You can take your dharma and shove it up your ass!”

The student then charged for the door.

Just as he was about to slam the door, he heard the master say in a soft voice, “Please don’t lose my dharma.”

An important beginning for the student. Not losing the dharma might take forty more years of training.


_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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Larry
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:53 pm

:lol:

Great story. I'm also a fan of Dosho Port.

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lindama
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by lindama » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:47 pm

Great story Keith!

Someone help me out... there is an old zen story which I used to like... similar. Benkei?? or someone like him? he keeps coming, after 3 times he is sent away.... comes back, etc.

Seeker242
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Seeker242 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:45 pm

KeithA wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:32 pm
Seeker242 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:03 pm
lindama wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:40 am
WOW!

First, this is an issue for Zen and any tradition.... let's put our feet on the ground and walk. I've seen it covered up, processed in public, break apart sanghas in several traditions.


Of course it's an issue. If it wasn't, then no teacher would have been able to get away with misbehavior. "Surrendering" to teachers, even though it is not actually a part of zen practice, is what has allowed teachers to get away with abusive behavior. It doesn't matter is it's not part of actual zen practice, it still happens anyway. Therefore, it is certainly an issue.
I recall having a similar discussion at ZFI. The good Reverend Nonin was pretty adamant about the need to "submit" to the teacher. "Surrender" sounds similar. I personally prefer "trust". If I didn't trust my teacher, I would find another one.

Words like surrender and submit suggest to me giving up one's autonomy. Not really a fan of that idea!
I think it depends on how one defines "surrender". :) In the video Brad appears to define it as "giving up all your personal power". And then explains that when someone does that, saying no and just walking away if the teacher did something inappropriate, would be very difficult because you would no longer have the power to just say no and walk away. Given that definition, not appropriate to "surrender" IMO.

Furthermore, if you do give up that power, then how are you going to kill the buddha, your teacher and your parents? You're probably not going to want to kill someone that you worship like a god. :lol:

And good story! :D

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bukowski
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Re: Never Surrender!

Post by bukowski » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:19 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:01 am
I point out that in Zen Buddhist practice, surrender is not part of the system of training,
Joe - To me, surrender is an integral foundation of zen practice. It is linked to the elimination of ego

also -

trust requires surrender, what?

It is, as Linda points out, to do with self, not one's teacher

cheers

m
Hi all.

This is my understanding as well. :namaste: bukowski.

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