Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

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desert_woodworker
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 pm

my brother Fuki,
fuki wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:59 pm
Thanks, anything after the first four posts are superfluous ingredients and a disservice to Master Sheng Yen's words in my view, ofcourse it's all unintentionally and just habit, but I feel Shifu "deserves" better from us. Apologies from my part. (just imo ofcourse)
My shifu would be pleased that we are discussing this material at all, in the first place.

But, more important is (perfected) posture, physical practice(s), and true zazen. Don't be(come) complacent. Talking does not do for us what samadhi does, and the sudden breaking-up of samadhi ...and the practice of zazen following the sudden-breaking-up of samadhi.

(See Meido Roshi's book!, BTW. Truly, a very clear and direct gift, to inspire confidence; or, aspiration).

:namaste:

--Joe

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bodhi
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by bodhi » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:10 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:33 am
bodhi wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:25 pm
In this way causality is just like time and space. You could search endlessly for what caused my thoughts in this topic but never find a cause. It's the same with self or anatman.
( Anything can be considered a “primary product” or “byproduct” depending on the chosen perspective.)
What are you talking about, the question was: If my words are a byproduct what is the primary product of subatomic production?
I would refer you to the “canonical” sources you requested, but...
If there were such a thing in the Buddhist cannon, and you knew about it, shouldn't you point it out?
causality is essentially treated the same as time and space
And no-self? I don't recall ever reading anything about no-cause/effect or no-karma. If you have a doctrinal reference for this please show us.
(neither caused or non-caused...
??? okay?
and in no case does countless causes equal no cause)
If everything causes everything then, what?
Again, what is defined as a “primary product” or “byproduct” depends on the perspective chosen for that discussion in both strandard Buddhist or modern physics discussion because it is a values weighing decision based on a specific context.
The specific context, which I repeat for the third time, is my words and "subatomic production." If my words are a byproduct of subatomic production then what is the primary product of subatomic production? That's the question that I asked. If you want to answer that question, please, be my quest.

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:14 pm

bodhi wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:10 pm
If you want to answer that question, please, be my quest.
Funny as all get-out. Got to love a good typographical (?) error.

--Joe

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bodhi
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by bodhi » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:29 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:14 pm
bodhi wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:10 pm
If you want to answer that question, please, be my quest.
Funny as all get-out. Got to love a good typographical (?) error.

--Joe
Autocorrect, but I kinda like this better. I'm a quester, by nature. :106:

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:32 pm

b. wrote:I'm a quester, by nature.
A fine telescope I admired since 1966 is "Questar".

But, alas, it is a small telescope. Small-bore. Small aperture. But, "fine". Granted, it goes only so far, but what a beauty. Never could afford one, until now. And, now, well, ...I know better. And have larger 'scopes. And finer.

--Joe

questar_classic.jpg
3.5-inch "Questar" telescope, Classic, from Pennsylvania, USA, exceedingly fine.
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Best wishes for strong practice!

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fuki
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:41 pm

bodhi wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:10 pm
The specific context, which I repeat for the third time, is my words and "subatomic production." If my words are a byproduct of subatomic production then what is the primary product of subatomic production? That's the question that I asked. If you want to answer that question, please, be my quest.
Such a literalist bodhi, all words and questions come from the mind and no answer anyone gives can make you "drop" the mind it seems. If you'd get the function of me using the word "byproduct" you wouldnt have any questions regarding "primary" so forget about "byproduct" me saying it was useless. There's zero reality in any concept, originally there are none, their service is limited in relation between persons and situations, when you drop the person, no words are needed. Then we can finally have a real talk.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:43 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:32 pm
b. wrote:I'm a quester, by nature.
A fine telescope I admired since 1966 is "Questar".

But, alas, it is a small telescope. Small-bore. Small aperture. But, "fine". Granted, it goes only so far, but what a beauty. Never could afford one, until now. And, now, well, ...I know better. And have larger 'scopes. And finer.

--Joe


questar_classic.jpg

Cool toy Joe, enjoy using it.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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fuki
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by fuki » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:48 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:44 pm
Don't be(come) complacent.
We'll make sure that doesn't happen, stick around, eh?!

:115:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

IZIhttp://www.zeninstitute.org/en/iziae/main.html

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:55 pm

Mr. f(uki),
fuki wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:43 pm
Cool toy Joe, enjoy using it.
¡Oye! I don't own such a lil' puppy. I have big dogs. At home with me, and where I left others of them (see).

--Joe

Keck_one_and_two_Hawaii.jpg
The Keck Telescopes, on the Big Island of Hawai'i. I've used Keck 2, the newer of the two.
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bodhi
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by bodhi » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:13 am

fuki wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:41 pm
Such a literalist bodhi, all words and questions come from the mind and no answer anyone gives can make you "drop" the mind it seems.
I must admit that a good drop of the mind would probably make me far less literal.

Image
If you'd get the function of me using the word "byproduct" you wouldnt have any questions regarding "primary" so forget about "byproduct" me saying it was useless.
Yes, of course, but the point of my inquestery was to determine the function, which I believed would be revealed eventually.
There's zero reality in any concept, originally there are none, ...
The concept that originally there are no concepts is, well, a concept, and if it's a concept then it has ZERO reality. :P
when you drop the person,
Image
no words are needed. Then we can finally have a real talk.
Okay but I might be seeing stars and stuff.

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:29 am

Stars are good. Stuff is not. :lol:

your'n,

--Joe

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:37 am

Marcel,
fuki wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:41 pm
...when you drop the person, no words are needed. Then we can finally have a real talk.
Yow-ga! You would have liked my Master, the Ven. Sheng Yen.

Or, my friend, and young Dharma brother, Guo Gu. 8-)

Catch-on to true practice,

--Joe

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:15 am

Summary of the thread so far:

Some people don't understand my master, Ven. Sheng Yen. It's ok. All will become clear as they practice with their own masters and sanghas (iff they do so).

One member thinks that conditioned arising does not occur in emptiness, where "in" emptiness means that emptiness is a "matrix" for such arising. Oh, well! This spells the difference between those who use words to indicate what they have experienced, and do experience, versus those who hope to experience such a state, but don't see that they have any potential transmogrative practice that might allow them to do so.

I'd recommend, quite as usual, that one see a Teacher, and the sangha associated with that teacher.

This, too, is just standard reference for inquirers into Zen Buddhist practice, and its upshot.

Strong practice,

--Joe
Best wishes for strong practice!

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bodhi
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by bodhi » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:37 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:15 am
One member thinks that conditioned arising does not occur in emptiness, where "in" emptiness means that emptiness is a "matrix" for such arising.
Here I go being literal again, so bear with me if you can stand it. If there’s an “in” there’s and “out.” Such is the nature of dualisms. This being the case, I’m compelled to ask: what is ‘outside’ of emptiness? Hey, that’s a terrific koan. :lol:

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:44 am

b.,
bodhi wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:37 am
what is ‘outside’ of emptiness? Hey, that’s a terrific koan. :lol:
If this is what gets your goat, then, ....go be gotten by that ...goat. Caution!

--Joe

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Have at it, ...until you cannot.
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by bodhi » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:09 am

Super cute. :wool:

I don’t know what you’re saying, if that matters.

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:25 am

bodhi wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:09 am
Super cute. :wool:

I don’t know what you’re saying, if that matters.
Chew on all the stuff such as baby goats and Billy Goats chew on. That has nothing to do with what actual Zen Buddhist practice will open up to you and others, with Teacher and sangha. You may already know this.

--Joe

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by lindama » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:08 am

Nothing wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:20 pm
if may I add that imo a correct intellectual understanding of emptiness, dependent origination is important for correct practice.
This thread has many twists and turns.... Viktor, If I may add.... no intellectual understanding of the above is necessary. Look to your own wisdom, I have seen it. I'm a bit dizzy at the end of this thread.....
linda

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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by lindama » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:44 am

dear ones, I have to say that this thread does not further. it's a product of what should be according to our concepts, nothing more. It's not a result of Sheng Yen's words... it is the result of the person who is asking the questions.... the person who is setting up Sheng Yen for a very limited and intellectual response. Just read the intro before Sheng Yen, it is poppykock. That is a dis-service to the Master. What is the origin... who is asking the questions???

To reduce a master to one interview is not a sevice to anyone....

and, to reduce life to emptiness, dependant arising, even practice with a teacher.... it's just more political correctness for me. We all have our paths to walk.... don't accept any substitute.
linda

frankly, I think we as a new community would do better to relax and be ourselves.
Last edited by lindama on Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bodhi
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Re: Sheng Yen; Emptiness and Loneliness

Post by bodhi » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:01 am

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:25 am
bodhi wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:09 am
Super cute. :wool:

I don’t know what you’re saying, if that matters.
Chew on all the stuff such as baby goats and Billy Goats chew on. That has nothing to do with what actual Zen Buddhist practice will open up to you and others, with Teacher and sangha. You may already know this.

--Joe
Zen and zen teacher and zen sangha too good for goat grass, aye? Figures. :103:

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