I'm a Hinayanist.

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clyde
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I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by clyde » Mon May 14, 2018 5:59 am

I’ve just begun reading The Rinzai Way and I can already sense Meido’s clear, sincere insight. I read the Foreword, Preface, and the first chapter (which I will return to); and then I read the Glossary. (Yes, I do that.)

While I was familiar with most of the terms, I was unfamiliar with several (Rinzai specific?) terms, including, for example, “Shugyo” and given its meaning, I was surprised that I hadn’t come across the term before.

Among the terms I was familiar with were:
PRATYEKABUDDHAYANA (Skt.; Jpn., engakujo). The “vehicle of solitary buddhas.” In Mahayana classification, the term refers to those who arrive at enlightenment on their own and who do not ever teach. Their attainment is genuine but still considered incomplete, and they do not aspire to compassionately aid others. This vehicle and the Shravakayana together comprise the Hinayana.
I understand “solitary buddha” as one who awakens without lineage. As noted in the definition, the attainment is not complete, but it is a genuine awakening; so I disagree that a “solitary buddha” lacks the aspiration to help others for a buddha, perfect or not, cannot lack compassion although it too may be “not complete”.
SHRAVAKAYANA (Skt.; Jpn., shomonjo). The “vehicle of the hearers.” In Mahayana classification, this refers to those who follow a buddha’s teachings but whose practice tends toward a partial, personal liberation rather than the full fruit of buddhahood. This vehicle and the Pratyekabuddhayana together comprise the Hinayana.
Upon reflection, I realize that I’m a Hinayanist. I’m not a Mahayanist.
MAHAYANA (Skt.; Jpn., daijo). The “great vehicle,” also called the Bodhisattvayana: the vehicle of the bodhisattvas, who vow to attain enlightenment not solely for themselves but to liberate all beings. In Mahayana traditions that became dominant in Central and East Asia, it is believed that only this vehicle results in complete buddhahood, including all the qualities and means for aiding others. The common Mahayana path is marked by a gradual fulfillment of the paramitas.
I’m a Hinayanist . . . but not by choice. I’d prefer to be the nobler Mahayanist, a Bodhisattva who vows to liberate all beings; but that’s not my character. There are people in the world who are Bodhisattvas, who are dedicated to compassionately aiding others, but I’m not one of them. I’m sometimes helpful, but not often, and not in a dedicated way.

In truth, the only thing I’m dedicated to is me. Hinayana.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by fuki » Mon May 14, 2018 7:27 am

I always remind myself that no conceptual proposition is true if the habit of (metaphorical) definitions arise.

But in daily activities there are moments where I have to "pick and choose" between "myself and others" If that happens I also know these are deluded moments/dwellings because mostly everything happens spontaneous without having ideations about it. If that happens when wisdom is obscured I go back to what I expediently learned and put on that temporary conceptual jacket in order to return to pure not knowing and just doing the job.
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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by Crystal » Mon May 14, 2018 11:34 am

clyde wrote:
I’m a Hinayanist . . . but not by choice. I’d prefer to be the nobler Mahayanist, a Bodhisattva who vows to liberate all beings; but that’s not my character. There are people in the world who are Bodhisattvas, who are dedicated to compassionately aiding others, but I’m not one of them. I’m sometimes helpful, but not often, and not in a dedicated way.

In truth, the only thing I’m dedicated to is me. Hinayana.
Hello clyde,

It might be worth reading this:

"No Hinayana in Buddhism "

By Chan Khoon San and Kare A. Lie

http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/NoHinayana.pdf

and this : "The Hinayana Fallacy" by Bhikkhu Analayo.

http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/article/view/72/92


With best wishes,

Crystal _/|\_


.

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon May 14, 2018 2:48 pm

g' morning,
clyde wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:59 am
There are people in the world who are Bodhisattvas, who are dedicated to compassionately aiding others, but I’m not one of them. I’m sometimes helpful, but not often, and not in a dedicated way.

In truth, the only thing I’m dedicated to is me. Hinayana.
Dear Clyde,

What is the size (or extent) of ...yourself?

I'd say that is the key question, key determinant, and key point to appreciate. The size of oneself must be discovered unequivocally.

I'd say, too, that in genuine awakening, one discovers "the size of oneself". At that point, one is neither any longer Hinayana nor Mahayana. One becomes a Human being of no school and no rank, by uncovering all our original Human inheritances. It becomes so that it's just that in all one's daily doings and work, during our intermingling with beings and dharmas, true Wisdom arises, informs true Compassion, and that the two, Wisdom and Compassion, operating in closest communication and in seamless response to conditions, events, and beings, are expressed naturally and spontaneously. There is no choice about this, after true awakening. Seriously, one's way of "HELPING" others is in DOING JUST WHAT COMES NATURALLY (when one is awake). It is not effortful, nor intentional (not deliberate), not learned. That's why this Mind is called "...this miraculous Mind".

I think that this must actually also be so in what you call Hinayana (I call "it" Hinayana too, because that's the way I came up, never taking it as a slight, as some recent translators or teachers have come to do and to insist). The reason I say that this must be true in Hinayana too is that, otherwise, there would be no Hinayana TEACHERS. They will have had their "Nirvana", and jumped over the wall, leaving other hypothetical individual beings "behind". But, NO: Hinayana teachers help others by teaching them Dharma, and teaching them methods, and practicing with them. So now, there's "a FLAW IN THE OINTMENT" for you! ;)

Clyde, I love and appreciate the effort of self-analysis you've done, and I especially love your sharing it. It is delicious. But, honestly, I don't think things are as black-and-white as "Hinayana/Mahayana". Historically, of course they are. But as Human beings, and especially as Human beings who are awake, there is just ...no such-a-thing. No real dichotomy. No real distinction. Hence, no difference. At least not in the result! ( = genuine awakening).

On the bright side, this means that it's important to have a genuine awakening under a true teacher who teaches true Dharma (dharma), and there may still be such an adventure for you if you wish to pursue it, and have the juice for it (The Light Stuff). Then, one can sense on which side of the tradition(s) one tends to lean, or feels suited to. "Deciding" can wait, and really should wait (until after genuine awakening). Even then, one doesn't decide, but just lives.

The trouble with self-professed "pratyekabuddhas" is that they are SELF-professed. I say that disqualifies them even quicker than 'immediately'.

With that, I send brotherly best regards!, and warmest greetings.

From the desert,

--Joe

EDIT: p.s. I hope this reply is not too personal. If so, apologies in advance (or, retrospectively). I'd also like to say that I write from experience, not from theory, reading, or legend. All best, --J.

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by clyde » Mon May 14, 2018 7:15 pm

fuki wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:27 am
I always remind myself that no conceptual proposition is true if the habit of (metaphorical) definitions arise.

But in daily activities there are moments where I have to "pick and choose" between "myself and others" If that happens I also know these are deluded moments/dwellings because mostly everything happens spontaneous without having ideations about it. If that happens when wisdom is obscured I go back to what I expediently learned and put on that temporary conceptual jacket in order to return to pure not knowing and just doing the job.
Fuki; Thank you for your comment, but I don’t fully understand your point. I get that “mostly everything happens spontaneously”, but that must include ideation too; i.e., we don’t choose our thoughts; thoughts have us :)

But still I feel I missed your point.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by clyde » Mon May 14, 2018 7:18 pm

Crystal; Yes, it would be a grave error to mistake “Hinayana” with any of the Buddhist traditions. I used the term in the way that I believe Meido meant it; i.e., as a description of (my) personal practice.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by clyde » Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 pm

Joe; Thank you for your comments.

I agree, awakening one becomes (perhaps, “is revealed as” is better) an authentic human being.

Yes, I caught the “flaw” (no Hinayana teachers) too. My ‘explanation’ is that since a Buddha cannot lack compassion, there are no Hinayana Buddhas. Pratyeka Buddhas and Shravaka Buddhas are Mahayanists though the path and its practitioners are Hinayana, that is, there is a Hinayanakaya and there are Hinayanists.

Yes, things aren’t black-and-white, not Hinayana/Mahayana, and not me. Sometimes (often) I’m a Hinayanist, sometimes (rarely) a Bodhisattva, and sometimes (mostly) neither (simply lost). Being “authentic” means accepting the truth of oneself, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Regarding the pursuit of “a genuine awakening”, I’ve pursued it, in my own flawed way, for many, many (long enough to add an additional “many”) years. I’ve had moments of clarity and insight, of bliss and light. I sometimes long for those “special events”, but I no longer chase or worry about it.

With deep gratitude,
clyde


p.s: No apology needed. What I wrote was personal, perhaps too personal for a public forum, but I’m more interested in sharing personal experience than intellectual debates (though those are sometimes fun). So, your reply, written from your experience, is appreciated.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by Dan74 » Mon May 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Very much appreciate your post, clyde and the honesty.

In truth, I can second most if not all of what you write. Sometimes this, sometimes the other, mostly lost..

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by desert_woodworker » Tue May 15, 2018 2:19 am

Clyde,

You're very welcome, and thanks again for your exposition.
clyde wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 pm
Sometimes (often) I’m a Hinayanist, sometimes (rarely) a Bodhisattva, and sometimes (mostly) neither (simply lost). Being “authentic” means accepting the truth of oneself, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
All intentional seriousness aside for a moment, I am reminded here of what our great American humorist, Ambrose Bierce, wrote in his THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY (in about 1900-1910?), as his definition there of "Teetotaler":
  • "Teetotaler, n. One who abstains from strong drink, sometimes totally, sometimes tolerably totally."
clyde wrote:Regarding the pursuit of “a genuine awakening”, I’ve pursued it, in my own flawed way, for many, many (long enough to add an additional “many”) years. I’ve had moments of clarity and insight, of bliss and light. I sometimes long for those “special events”, but I no longer chase or worry about it.
I hope there's a way to pursue genuine awakening in a way that is not flawed, and which is not one's own. That then may stand a chance of working the necessary magic, at least once.

(not a critique, but an encouragement to All; myself included).

Meido Roshi has a nice paragraph at the top of his page 78, which credits Effort as well as deepest Relaxation, and discredits Tension and Fixation. "Dissolving layers of habitual delusion", as he writes, I'd say, cannot be done if oneself alone is in charge of one's guidance and closest care, wielding just one's own flawed way. Well, so we have teachers, and go on retreats, and work with the teacher and sangha regularly as we can. Some do, some don't; I know. Just reiterating what's logical; yes, even logical.

Einstein had choice words about "insanity", but let's not rehearse them.

I'm long known to emphasize or overemphasize working with teacher and sangha (because I've worked the other way, too).

Best wishes all around, Everyone,

Hinayanists, Mahayanists, Vajrayanists, Teetotalers,

--Joe

:107: Cactus Makes Perfect

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by bokki » Tue May 15, 2018 9:41 am

Clyde, thank you.
I'm a Hinayanist.
id repost the whole op, but y, its there.

id like to rap a bit to your tune, i find it good fodder for thought.

i find u, by saying 'im a hinayanist'
actually prove urself to b a mahayanist
ekayanist
or , well said..human.
tho, i would tend to say theravada..

sir, nice posts. thnx.

lol, joe, cactus makes perfect, lol
u know i have a bad sense of humor?
2 cactuses make a bloodbath.

thnx, seniors.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by bokki » Tue May 15, 2018 11:31 am

well, forgetfulness i suppose is my gene.
so, bout these pratyeka and so on..

have u heard, tho ,
that each and every stream enterer is a Buddha.

tho, how come this particular discrimination?


have u read d platform sutra? bout the basic, final discrimination...
or am i just rambling..

so, way, how bout stream enterers, may i , plz, ask of u, an all.
thnx.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by Caodemarte » Tue May 15, 2018 12:52 pm

A wonderful post Clyde!

On a side note:
clyde wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:18 pm
..it would be a grave error to mistake “Hinayana” with any of the Buddhist traditions. I used the term in the way that I believe Meido meant it; i.e., as a description of (my) personal practice.
I think this is the also the way it was originally used and then applied much later in the early Indian polemical wars to “enemy” sects (the 18 or 21 specific sects that it was used against are all long extinct).

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by fuki » Tue May 15, 2018 4:17 pm

clyde wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:15 pm

But still I feel I missed your point.
Hi Clyde, just the usual point that no self-definition is valid eventhough I realize that a temporary "expedient" costume can be functional.
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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by Wayfarer » Wed May 16, 2018 10:10 am

Actually Chogyam Trungpa had a really good take on the place and meaning of hinayana (which is not, by the way, 'Theravada'.) He said, it is the aspect of the training that is concerned with functional discipline, with learning to tie your shoes and make your bed (so to speak, and I'm paraphrasing) so you could then move on to the other aspects. But without having your shoes tied and your bed made, then you can't move on, so it's not as if that aspect of the discipline is petty or small or trivial, or even really 'lesser', which is what 'hina' means. It's just that aspect of the path, and in some respects is fundamental to the rest of it. (Or at any rate, that is how I remember what I read, I hope I haven't mis-conveyed it.)
The most important thing is not at all important.

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed May 16, 2018 2:48 pm

Indeed. And we can recall, too, the important work that "the thin end of the wedge" does. People with something to lose are often worried that some new thing or some new development is "...the thin end of the wedge!"

;) :namaste:

--Joe

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed May 16, 2018 3:00 pm

Some time ago in certain circles, instead of talking about "Hinayana" Buddhism (not in the general sense of a phase or aspect of one's practice or training as Clyde is using it skillfully here, distinguishing it scrupulously from any extant discrete schools of Buddhist practice or philosophy), I began to use the term "Archaic Buddhism".

I think this captures Hinayana as well as some or many of the 18 early schools that have died-out, and is a good, general term, indicating age, and seniority, and saying nothing about "size", nor making presumptions nor taking prejudice about "quality".

So, for me, "Archaic Buddhism" it is, and shall be.

If "Hinayana" or "hinayana" should slip out, though, it's just an artefact of my upbringing and early academic study. For long I considered "Hinayana" also an honorific, but I understand that there are some who don't or can't see it that way; to me, "Hinayana" is always associated with times most closely intimate and associated with the times and spirit of the living Buddha Shakyamuni himself, and soon after his parinirvana. And, to me, "Archaic Buddhism", as a usage, is a slight step down from that placement: however, it is certainly rigorously correct, and I see that it's going to have to do. I note that some scholars also use it now in writings.

But (sorry... ) most of this is off-topic!, since Clyde indicates he is not using the word to indicate any school, but treats it as a facet of practice. (Kudos!).

--Joe

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by fuki » Thu May 17, 2018 11:17 am

Joe, this made me very happy (what shifu said starting at 07:00)
https://youtu.be/S5GQL6ru1kw

Glad to know my instincts about "other paths" have been right that there's nothing outside of buddhadharma/mahayana, practically speaking.
Screenshot_2018-05-17-13-12-52.png
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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu May 17, 2018 1:38 pm

Marcel,
fuki wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:17 am
Glad to know my instincts about "other paths" have been right that there's nothing outside of buddhadharma/mahayana, practically speaking.
Tee-hee, ha-ha. My shifu taught that there are "outer paths", that is, paths that are not Buddhist, religions that are not Buddhist. And he was quite specific about their characteristics, and about his reasons for identifying them as "outer paths". Some of them were as the English fellow with the vortex avatar at ZFI emulated or embodied. But, we're not talking about those, here. :)

--Joe

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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by fuki » Thu May 17, 2018 4:24 pm

You mean Larry? :lol:

Noted Sir, still very happy, but Sheng Yen always has that effect :)
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Re: I'm a Hinayanist.

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri May 25, 2018 6:24 am

Here are a few pages from Kornfield, on the "yanas": Hinayana; Mahayana; Vajrayana.

The text is still pretty readable at this scale. I made these images a year ago for some sharing in a Dharma-class situation. --Joe

EDIT: p.s. Clyde, I think these pages address some of your identification of the reality and operation of "stage-ism" or phase-ism in Buddhist practice, meaning the tenor or flavor of one's practice at the moment, and not the actual name of a category or historical name of any particular school of practice (if I've got that right, about what you've written here). Kornfield conveys his sense that we go through phases which include the whole history of Buddhism and it's characteristics of practice, I'd say. All best, -J.

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