Aesthetic Consciousness

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boda
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Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by boda » Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 pm

Have you ever considered, or experienced, aesthetic consciousness?

Do you think it might be fitting to characterize samadhi as aesthetic consciousness?

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fuki
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by fuki » Thu May 17, 2018 9:13 pm

bodhi wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 pm
Have you ever considered, or experienced, aesthetic consciousness?

Do you think it might be fitting to characterize samadhi as aesthetic consciousness?
Don't know what easthetic consciousness means. But samadhi is when there's no individuality or "person" but the manifested totality only.
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Caodemarte
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by Caodemarte » Fri May 18, 2018 12:33 am

I also don’t know what is meant by “aesthetic consciousness” here and “samadhi” has had many definitions that vary widely. Please define your terms kind OP!

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri May 18, 2018 2:06 am

b.,
bodhi wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 pm
Have you ever considered, or experienced, aesthetic consciousness?
Probably ;) (but dunno how defined).

I think anytime at a museum, listening to music, making a drawing or painting, or a photograph, there is "aesthetic consciousness" going on: consciousness both immersed-in aesthetics and simultaneously concerned about the outcome of an aesthetic project.

A good work of Art is a balanced composition of Content and Intent.
bodhi wrote:Do you think it might be fitting to characterize samadhi as aesthetic consciousness?
Samadhi is so singular, and is such a break with the ordinary or default-mode of consciousness, that I'd say, "No", this is not fitting at all. Granted, there are some states or phases within samadhi's spectrum (say, of the eight broadly characterized jhanas), some of which among those "with form", are particularly enjoyable, pleasant, ecstatic, "spell-binding" (! ;) ), and even rather thrilling. But, overall, no. Samadhi has nothing in particular to do with aesthetics, but is well characterized by other features, routinely called "jhana factors".

EDIT: And, I'd say the non-equality or non-identity works the other way, too: An instance of consciousness centered around some aesthetic endeavor or appreciation is not necessarily samadhi (and in almost all instances is not samadhi). Now, in a person who is awake, a sort of samadhi reigns at all times and in all activities, so if that person should, while awake, engage in some Art project, well, then, art and samadhi would definitely have contact. But I don't think this is the case you're inquiring about.

Best of course is to practice, and to develop and cultivate samadhi with one's teacher and sangha.

But, aside from that, or in addition to it, ...a fine descriptive book exists, by a teacher who writes half the book by way of exposition, and then completes the book with transcripts of his interviews with eight other meditation teachers, all on the topic of the jhanas (samadhi states). This book is:
  • Richard Shankman, The Experience of Samadhi -- An In-Depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation, 2008, Shambhala.
Best, b., and best, All,

--Joe

shankman_samadhi.jpg
shankman_samadhi.jpg (2.59 KiB) Viewed 360 times
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Fri May 18, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lindama
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by lindama » Fri May 18, 2018 3:42 am

well, it needs no definition as far as I can see.... Bodhi is not talking about art, enjoyment, spell binding, etc, etc. Samadi goes beyond the personal, but it's not deaf and dumb. Great art, incl music and literature, are sometimes created from a consciousness that transcends self. We all have moments where it's not little linda speaking and doing yet the soup gets cooked and there are times when I'm not speaking. There is, to put it crudly, an underlying principle at work that we could call our natural nature for simplicity. I'd say that ego consciousness is a break with reality,... why aren't we oooing and ahhhhing at that. Samadi best left alone without all that hoopti-do. After all, Samadi is a tool, a word, to describe the ineffable... yet, it is clearly experienced.... we just get out of the way.

anyhoo, we have no proof that consciousness originates in the brain....

Aesthetic consciousness would never put this, or any topic, at the back of the bus.

linda

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by bokki » Fri May 18, 2018 12:38 pm

a good q? and wholesome answers..

may i add a few?

prajna is quite similar 2 aesthetic co...
is not the whole thing beaut..?

or is it a chore...

but, thjen , we may not even be here..
lol
fuki?
how r d non-existing cats? enjoying some nonexistent food?

maybe that is NOT aesth...

and, dang..., just write esthetic..no need 4 an a...
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri May 25, 2018 3:33 pm

b.,

Again, no, I'd say that the as-yet undefined "aesthetic consciousness" is not necessarily (leaving the door open, there... ) samadhi. And, is most likely not (no matter your definition of putative "aesthetic consciousness"). But still interested to learn your notion of aesth. consc.

Hmpf, a day ago I cast the metaphor and opined in another thread that "samadhi is second-wind for meditators".

Decades ago, I used to try to give a notion of samadhi when asked about it, and often said, along with some qualifiers, that, "Samadhi is essentially falling asleep with your eyes open."

No, no great opening to aesthetics as a defining factor or identifying factor, there.

--Joe

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boda
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by boda » Fri May 25, 2018 6:05 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:33 pm
b.,

Again, no, I'd say that the as-yet undefined "aesthetic consciousness" is not necessarily (leaving the door open, there... ) samadhi. And, is most likely not (no matter your definition of putative "aesthetic consciousness"). But still interested to learn your notion of aesth. consc.

Hmpf, a day ago I cast the metaphor and opined in another thread that "samadhi is second-wind for meditators".

Decades ago, I used to try to give a notion of samadhi when asked about it, and often said, along with some qualifiers, that, "Samadhi is essentially falling asleep with your eyes open."

No, no great opening to aesthetics as a defining factor or identifying factor, there.

--Joe
Interesting that you claim not to know what is meant by aesthetic consciousness yet claim that it's not samadhi. And isn't there a spectrum of samadhi, from shallow to deep?

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fuki
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by fuki » Fri May 25, 2018 6:08 pm

bodhi wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:05 pm
aesthetic consciousness
I'm still trying to pronounce (think) it
nothing's happening
:P
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri May 25, 2018 6:25 pm

b.,
bodhi wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:05 pm
Interesting that you claim not to know what is meant by aesthetic consciousness yet claim that it's not samadhi. And isn't there a spectrum of samadhi, from shallow to deep?
Tee-hee, no. It's not "interesting". I know what I mean by some sort of aesth. consc., and wrote examples of it in my first posts in this thread (have a read or reread if you will). But although at least one other member and myself have asked what you mean by it, you have not replied. OK-enough: No guarantees appear in this board's TOU, I know that. Granted, there may be many things afoot. You're only Human. Such is Life. We'll go on without you. Meanwhile, the answer remains "No". There is no connection. Maybe you find one in your own definition of the "aesth. consc." object you've made up. And you may keep it to yourself as long as you must. No fault/no worries. This is a varied forum.

--Joe

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boda
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by boda » Fri May 25, 2018 6:40 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:08 pm
bodhi wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:05 pm
aesthetic consciousness
I'm still trying to pronounce (think) it
nothing's happening
:P
That's it. :)

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri May 25, 2018 7:33 pm

bodhi wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:40 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:08 pm
bodhi wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:05 pm
aesthetic consciousness
I'm still trying to pronounce (think) it
nothing's happening
:P
That's it. :)
Thanks, Fuki. Yeah, no connection, whatso-never.

--Joe

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[james]
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by [james] » Fri May 25, 2018 10:30 pm

bodhi wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 pm
Have you ever considered, or experienced, aesthetic consciousness?

Do you think it might be fitting to characterize samadhi as aesthetic consciousness?
From Miriam-Webster:
The Origin and Etymology of “Aesthetic”: borrowed from German ästhetisch "pertaining to taste or discernment," borrowed from New Latin aestheticus, borrowed from Greek aisthētikós "of sense perception, sensitive, perceptive," from aisthētós "sensible, perceptible" (verbal adjective of aisthánomai, aisthánesthai "to perceive, take notice of, understand," going back to *awis-th-, from *awis-, base of Greek aḯein "to perceive, hear" + -th-, resultative noun suffix) + -ikos ...

So, consciousness - perception - discernment/taste - I factor reactivity.
It would seem that, from the origins of the word, all consciousness is fundamentally aesthetic.
I’d say that samadhi leaves out the component of reactivity.

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boda
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by boda » Sat May 26, 2018 12:07 am

[james] wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:30 pm
I’d say that samadhi leaves out the component of reactivity.
If you prick us in samadhi, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh?

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by [james] » Sat May 26, 2018 12:28 am

bodhi wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 12:07 am
If you prick us in samadhi, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
Sure, go ahead.

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by desert_woodworker » Sat May 26, 2018 1:47 pm

For the most part, it's not anesthetic, anyway. ;)

Trouble with the dictionary is that Webster knows nothing about samadhi from experience.

It is a singular condition. The practitioner may have some aesthetic appreciation -- there may be some aesthetic component -- in a samadhi-state, but the condition or state is not characterized by an aesthetic sense, or sensation. It is characterized by the "jhana factors", which become fewer and fewer as samadhi deepens (either in one session, or over a period of, say, months of one's continued cultivation of it).

Physical condition is important to samadhi states. Samadhi is a condition of body and mind.

Some writers would say that samadhi could be likened, by way of simile, to something like the nonintermittent concentration that a focused artist or craftsman may have in moments, in creating an artwork; but, "No". Samadhi is not necessarily a "doing" state, nor even "appreciating" state. However, in our formal practice, we DO bring samadhi off the cushions and into walking, i.e., kinhin. That is, provided one has deepened and stabilized the state so that the samadhi state is not "scared-away" by the termination of the meditation-round, and by the movement of mind that's first necessary to move the body. That transition is quite delicate at first, but, like most things, succeeds with practice, so that samadhi will persist during the walking (and then afterwards, in the even more "challenging" or involved everyday activities and work of life, which, earlier, may have erased or scared-away fledgling samadhi).

EDIT: On this point, Meido Moore Roshi writes in an elegant chapter of his (2018) book, his Chapter 9 "Samadhi (Meditative Absorption)",
  • "If we cannot sit in meditation for even a short while with stability and focus, we must first practice to develop those qualities. If we cannot remain undistracted when we stand up from the meditation cushion and enter into daily activities, we must practice ceaselessly to do that."
So to assume that some aesthetic appreciation, say, is a samadhi state is just uninformed. But, that other may be some state or other of "working-concentration" (which itself is a state that perhaps not many people are familiar with since the nature of "work" has changed in many ways).

Again, going back a few replies, I'd say that in order to answer any question about samadhi most fairly one must have developed a samadhi practice and hence cultivated samadhi oneself. "Dictionaries" don't, won't, and can't have a clue, nor can they give a clue. Only experience (embodiment) informs. That's what I'd say. So, the OP may one day be able to answer his/her question directly if not today.

w/ Best wishes, All.

--Joe

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lindama
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by lindama » Sun May 27, 2018 5:24 am

ay vey, sigh.... look. Samadi has nothing to do with behavior.

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boda
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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by boda » Wed May 30, 2018 3:44 am

I think y’all are getting too religious on me so we’re not speaking the same language, so to speak.

A samadhi state is basically a quiet mind, free of the ruminations and distractions that we normally engage in daily life. This is similar to aesthetic consciousness.

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by clyde » Wed May 30, 2018 4:37 am

bodhi wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 3:44 am
A samadhi state is basically a quiet mind, free of the ruminations and distractions that we normally engage in daily life. This is similar to aesthetic consciousness.
In what ways is aesthetic consciousness different?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Aesthetic Consciousness

Post by lindama » Wed May 30, 2018 4:54 am

bodhi wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 3:44 am
I think y’all are getting too religious on me so we’re not speaking the same language, so to speak.

A samadhi state is basically a quiet mind, free of the ruminations and distractions that we normally engage in daily life. This is similar to aesthetic consciousness.
yes.... when I said samadhi had nothing to do with behavior, I was not excluding behavior... it sure sounded like it tho.... haha, everybody can come away with their own idea and feel just fine having no idea what the others took away. :558: Bodhi's pin prick is right on.

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