My Two Cents Worth

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Great Sage EofH
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My Two Cents Worth

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:14 am

I've been around half a dozen Buddhist forums or so...

...and it's time for me to take a break...

The most common errors i see in understanding, and this goes for myself as well (in no specific order), a lack of finding the Middle Way

(1) Antinomianism

(2) Eternalism

(3) Perennialism

(4) "Nothing is Real"

(5) Negation of Dharmas because they are Dharmas

(6) Understanding the Dharma with the Intellect Only

(7) Guru Worship

(8) Solipsism

That's just off the top of the list. Not meaning to open a can of worms, but mostly when i see these things I say not so much. There's a great masquerade going on, and I wouldn't want to be the one to ruin things.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:43 pm

On zenspace practisioners do not lock others up in a mental picture and call them "eternalists" or "solipists" on a forum (or keep it to themselves), its just ego-manifestation disguised as "protecting the dharma" so they feel necessary to point out to others that their views are not in accordance with Buddhadharma. (in their intellectual fantasies) Zenspace and zfi too had no such tendencies to label others as Unbuddhists or Undharma while such behaviour ironically manifests just that.

ps I once tried to find the "middle way" all I found was that it designated the extremes, you will find such extremes in the comments and views of those who point out the mistakes of others, they are oblivious and project unto others by use of their intellect that the understanding of the dharma by others is intellectual! The irony is flabbergasting, most forums then manifest a true so called expert (like dzogchen) with a group of brainwashed followers constantly pointing out the error in the view of others, much like the list you provided. Perhaps you indeed have taking up the tendency to lock up others and yourself in a mental picture/list like above. Or worse free of such a list and consider yourself/others as "true practisioners" No such phenomena on zen space, take a break from taking a break! Be loving and supportive of everyone whether perceived as "not in accordance buddhdharma" or not.
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desert_woodworker
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:52 pm

A feature of such discussion-forums of ALL kinds, not just Zen Buddhist, is their lack of Physical Practices. Talk, talk, talk, talk!; all talk, all the time. ;)

I find it's a fine Yoga to focus more on the physical practice your fingers are getting. :lol:

Ahh-hh-h... . Now, that's "good", "desirable", "successful", pleasant".

--------------------------------------------------------------

Fuki, as for solipsists: a fun joke among my fellow Philosophy students in the early '70s was to ask,

"Are YOU the Solipsist responsible for all this?"

--------------------------------------------------------------

Eric, you list a number of things, some which have similar 3-letter endings.

I recall a quip made by one of the Yippies (either Abbie Hoffman, or Jerry Rubin), in 1968 or so:

"All the 'isms' are WASms."

:D

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:58 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:52 pm


Ahh-hh-h... . Now, that's "good", "desirable", "successful", pleasant".
;)
Fuki, as for solipsists: a fun joke among my fellow Philosophy students in the early '70s was to ask,

"Are YOU the Solipsist responsible for all this?"
:lol:
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desert_woodworker
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm

I note "two planets" in one orbit, though: "Unphysical!", as we Physicists are wont to say:

cosmos_.jpg
(All too familiar Cosmology?)
cosmos_.jpg (12.91 KiB) Viewed 284 times

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Dan74
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by Dan74 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:52 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:14 am
I've been around half a dozen Buddhist forums or so...

...and it's time for me to take a break...

The most common errors i see in understanding, and this goes for myself as well (in no specific order), a lack of finding the Middle Way

(1) Antinomianism

(2) Eternalism

(3) Perennialism

(4) "Nothing is Real"

(5) Negation of Dharmas because they are Dharmas

(6) Understanding the Dharma with the Intellect Only

(7) Guru Worship

(8) Solipsism

That's just off the top of the list. Not meaning to open a can of worms, but mostly when i see these things I say not so much. There's a great masquerade going on, and I wouldn't want to be the one to ruin things.
Thank you for offering this, Eric.

There's a curious pushback here whenever anyone offers criticism (even someone with serious credentials, like Guo Gu). I wonder what this is about?

I guess as sentient beings, we are prone to all sorts of delusions, but with Zen folk, even the mild and benign sort like here, there is a special flavour to it, a kinda floating a few inches off the ground, or higher. I find often there is not much to really sink one's teeth into. Although not a potter, I am married to one, and have a lot of time for the folks who get their hands dirty and actually make stuff. But with Zen, for me, talk is cheap unless it is from the heart here-and-now, the heartmud extracted with bare hands, and then handbuilt with care and ezperience and cleaned up a bit. Others roll differently (or throw??) And that's ok too.

So coming back to your post, absolutely i see these in myself and in others. They are a by-product of selfmaking and faulty understanding. But also projection cannot be discounted. I don't really know anyone else's mind, but I do make guesses, consciously or unconsciously. What i do wonder about Zen and Buddhist folks is how big a role selfawareness in a Western psychological sense plays in your practice.

My sense is that for some folks, quite a significant role, in the sense of paying attention to the feelings, old hurts, blockages, habitual patterns. For others, it seems a lot of this stuff gets bypassed?

I bring it up because without a degree of self awareness and introspection, how is one to take on a criticism and try it on for size?

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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:45 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:52 pm

My sense is that for some folks, quite a significant role, in the sense of paying attention to the feelings, old hurts, blockages, habitual patterns. For others, it seems a lot of this stuff gets bypassed?
Yes, and one of the symptoms of this emotional contraction is pointing out the mistakes of others based on intellectual view of the dharma, telling others they are "eternalists" etc. If ppl have such views then they will be seen through and discarded as a result/transformation of their practise not because ppl on forums point them out with usual unloving projective speech. Nor will they figure it out by a so called intellectual right view of the buddhadharma. When I "suffered" from "emptiness sickness" do you think when a teacher on zfi kept saying "for you there is no cure" that it was helpful? Contrary, sure sometimes it might be compassionate action to "point it out" but those cases are rare, especially online. And in fact the approach will not be from a literal intellectual view telling others what their mistake is. The manifestation will be spontaneous and right according to the conditions and circumstances of the individual.

What is often missed is that all the Buddha's speech are medicine, adopted as a view they become the hindrance. So it's completely useless and demotivational to tell others (when sick yourself) that they're "eternalist" or "soliptists" which in 99% of the cases is a wrong assesment and thus wrong medicine. Or a right assesment and still the wrong medicine!

It's arrogant and dangerous to claim to know what others "wrong views" are and what medicine is best for them. It may be right in one's own perception but that's the only "place" where it's "right" Even if one's perception of someone else is right, it's a rarity to then "know" what the right approach to such individuals are. It's nothing fixed, so expounding and projecting the "fixed" dharma onto them (and yourself) is the ironic part I mentioned ;)

In any case, if you want a "right vs wrong" forum, a blind leading the blind forum. These are exactly the topics one needs to manifest such behaviour.

Expounding/projecting "correct buddhadharma" upon others is exactly one of the symptoms of spiritual bypassing.
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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm
I note "two planets" in one orbit, though: "Unphysical!", as we Physicists are wont to say:


cosmos_.jpg
Thanks!
Wonderful demonstration/"tape recording" of the central character called "me" fixated on self and phenomena.
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boda
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by boda » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:32 pm

That's just off the top of the list. Not meaning to open a can of worms, but mostly when i see these things I say not so much. There's a great masquerade going on, and I wouldn't want to be the one to ruin things.
Masquerading as the one not meaning to open the worm can after just pressing a list of hot buttons. Hilarious. :lol:

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desert_woodworker
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:59 pm

Fuki,

In this two-cents thread, I'll post a nickel. Or at least, "spend a penny" (ooh, sorry):
fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:03 pm
Wonderful demonstration/"tape recording" of the central character called "me" fixated on self and phenomena.
My old Scientific supervisor ("boss") (from Netherlands; I told you about him) had a guru in India who he would see each year, and spend a few weeks in his ashram there with him. His guru told him, "BE the Sun!" My boss tried to encourage ME to "be" (do) the same. I understood (I think), but I did not exert myself that way. I am a different kind of practitioner than he was.

From the Sun, no shadows can be seen. Open sun makes too many people squint, or be dazzled; not my cup of tea, nor a cup that I offer.

Hmm, speaking of "Bedazzled": a movie that Larry might remember! There was an unnecessary American re-make later, but the original is the ...original and better. ;-)

I'll post something of (from) "Bedazzled" in the Video Snippets area, here in Lounge: i.e., "Movie-Trailers; Video-Curiosities; Etc."

_/\_

--Joe

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Great Sage EofH
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by Great Sage EofH » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:35 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:52 pm

So coming back to your post, absolutely i see these in myself and in others. They are a by-product of selfmaking and faulty understanding. But also projection cannot be discounted. I don't really know anyone else's mind, but I do make guesses, consciously or unconsciously. What i do wonder about Zen and Buddhist folks is how big a role selfawareness in a Western psychological sense plays in your practice.

My sense is that for some folks, quite a significant role, in the sense of paying attention to the feelings, old hurts, blockages, habitual patterns. For others, it seems a lot of this stuff gets bypassed?

I bring it up because without a degree of self awareness and introspection, how is one to take on a criticism and try it on for size?
well i'm not going to use "slandering the Buddha" "grieveous error' or "leading astray" or any such language.

I can't make a mental formation out of Zen and hold it for any length of time.

And unless I spend time on a zafu, i slowly fade away from the Triple Gem entirely.

Doing gimmicks with my mind never works either.

I kind of detest the Self-Help Movement, i'd rather look at behaviours rather than to figure out what conscious and subconscious motivations we have. Self-help tends to give the impression that if you do something for your "Self" you get something in return, it just feels selfish. Whats wrong with just helping others with out expectation?

I don't know, my mind is kind of wandering.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~~ Roam

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michaeljc
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by michaeljc » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:48 pm

I don't know, my mind is kind of wandering
Mine too :lol: I am hearing you

For 24 hours I have been considering how to respond to a personal feeling that this forum has a leaking roof with a large black cloud looming

I feel that we are subject to a zennie version of PC

- not because of moderation but because of a question of staying on the middle path

My own life theory in times like these is, "wait, things change"

That's what I will do

Cheers

m

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desert_woodworker
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:05 pm

hi, Michael,
michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:48 pm
For 24 hours I have been considering how to respond to a personal feeling that this forum has a leaking roof with a large black cloud looming
Well, bless you, Michael. The flat roof on my mud adobe house is facing a hurricane from Baja, Mexico, in 4 days.

A deceased Zen Buddhist teacher of mine told me what his father told HIM, in Ireland, about that "leaky roof": (this 'explains' sometimes, I'd say, why some things, "DON'T GET DONE"):
  • "When it's not raining, it doesn't need fixing;
    When it IS raining, you can't fix it!"
(this was Patrick Hawk Roshi, of the Diamond Sangha (1942 - 2012); Guiding Teacher of Zen Desert Sangha, Tucson, Arizona; USA (1998-2012). My local teacher for 15 years.

--Joe

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Larry
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by Larry » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:15 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:59 pm
Hmm, speaking of "Bedazzled": a movie that Larry might remember! There was an unnecessary American re-make later, but the original is the ...original and better. ;-)
Missed that one but did appreciate Raquel in "One Million Years BC" around the same time ;)

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desert_woodworker
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:28 pm

Larry wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:15 pm
Missed that one but did appreciate Raquel in "One Million Years BC" around the same time ;)
Oh! Please have a look-see, why don't cha!?

--Joe

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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:13 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:48 pm
I feel that we are subject to a zennie version of PC
What does PC mean (other then personal computer)
and please explain the meaning of "zennie pc"

My computer (brain) often does not compute with urban language, if it is urban.
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boda
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by boda » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:22 pm

fuki wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:13 pm
michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:48 pm
I feel that we are subject to a zennie version of PC
What does PC mean (other then personal computer)
and please explain the meaning of "zennie pc"

My computer (brain) often does not compute with urban language, if it is urban.
Politically Correct, so zennie PC would be anything remotely ‘koany’, for instance, and nothing too ordinary sounding, like “gee, I had a success sit today.”

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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:27 pm

bodhi wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:22 pm

Politically Correct, so zennie PC would be anything remotely ‘koany’, for instance, and nothing too ordinary sounding, like “gee, I had a success sit today.”
Thanks. Now I understand but still don't get it.
Perhaps I'll recognize it when it happens, I might need your help pointing it out. :)
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michaeljc
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by michaeljc » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:29 pm

Zennie PC kinda means. "leave no ripples" :113:

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fuki
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Re: My Two Cents Worth

Post by fuki » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:34 pm

michaeljc wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:29 pm
Zennie PC kinda means. "leave no ripples" :113:
Sounds "koany" is this what bodhi meant? :lol:

Allright I cant use the intellect for this one unless I get help, out of my league I guess. :)
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