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SunWuKong
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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:06 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:26 pm
The work below is attributed to Ch’ang -lu Tsung-tse, a monk in the Chan (Zen) and Pure Land traditions in 11th century China. This “Zazen Manual” is used by Rinzai monks to this day, and is included in the classic Four Texts of the Zen School and the two-volume Poison-Painted Drum, the handbook for Rinzai monastic practice
[SPOILER]
Zazen Manual


Bodhisattvas aspiring to prajna-wisdom should first arouse great compassion, take the Four Great Vows, and cultivate samadhi- concentration. Vowing to set all beings free, do not seek liberation for yourself alone.

Then let go of all conditions and put all concerns to rest, with body and mind one, and no separation between movement and stillness. Be moderate with food and drink, taking neither too much nor too little. Regulate sleep, neither depriving nor indulging.

For zazen, spread a thick mat in a quiet place, loosen your clothing but maintain proper bearing, and sit in full-lotus. First place right foot on left thigh, then left foot on right thigh. Or sit in half-lotus, placing left foot on right thigh.

Next, place right hand on left foot, left hand on right palm, thumbs touching. Raise torso and stretch it forward, rock side to side, then sit erect. Do not tilt to one side, forward or backward. Align hips, spine, and head like a stupa. But do not strain to make your body erect, as this will constrict breath and cause discomfort. Ears in line with shoulders, nose in line with navel, tongue resting on upper palate, mouth gently closed, eyes slightly open to prevent drowsiness.
This is best for sustaining the concentrated power of dhyana.

In former times, eminent monks adept in this practice always sat with eyes open. Zen master Fayun Yuantong scolded those sitting with eyes closed, like a ghost cave in a dark mountain. There is good reason for this, which adepts know well.

With body settled, regulate breath and relax abdomen. Do not give rise to any thoughts, good or bad. If a thought does arise, be aware of it. Once you’re aware of it, it disappears. Eventually conditions are forgotten, and all is naturally unified. This is the essence of zazen.

Zazen really is the dharma gate of ease and joy. If people become ill from it, they are not doing it with proper care. Done properly, your whole body naturally becomes light and at ease, spirit fresh, mind clear. The flavor of dharma sustains, and you are calm, pure, and joyful.

If you’ve already had a realization, it is like a dragon entering water or a tiger roaming mountains. If you have yet to realize it, use the wind to fan the flame; great effort is not needed. Just confirm it yourself and you will not be deceived.
Where the path is lofty, however, demons abound and there are all sorts of experiences, agreeable and disagreeable. Just maintain mindfulness and none of this can obstruct you. The Surangama Sutra, Tiantai Chih-kuan, and Guifeng’s Manual for Cultivation and Realization describe in detail these demonic states, so you can be prepared in advance.

Coming out of meditation, move slowly and rise calmly, without haste or roughness. Then at all times use appropriate means to protect and sustain the concentrated power of dhyana, as if caring for a babe in arms. Thus it develops easily.

This is the most urgent task. If you don’t practice calmly and quietly, in the end you’ll be completely lost. To search for the pearl, it’s best to calm the waves. With the water of concentration still and clear, the mind-pearl reveals itself.
Thus The Perfect Enlightenment Sutra says that unhindered and pure wisdom arises from dhyana. The Lotus Sutra says that in a quiet place one should cultivate the mind and let it settle, so that it is as still as Mt. Sumeru. Thus, to transcend secular and sacred, quiet meditation is necessary; to freely pass away sitting or standing is dependent on the concentrated power of dhyana.
Even if you devote your life to it, be wary of falling short. And if you waste your time, how in the world will you overcome your karmic hindrances? Thus an ancient has said that without the concentrated power of dhyana, you will cower at death’s door. With eyes covered, you end your life in vain like a vagabond.
Fortunate dharma friends! Please read this manual again and again. For the benefit of oneself as well as others, let us all together fully awaken.

For commentary see https://beingwithoutself.org/inspirations/zazen-manual/

Well that's pretty clear.

Or is it? What if you don't know how to go where no thoughts are?

"With body settled, regulate breath and relax abdomen. Do not give rise to any thoughts, good or bad. If a thought does arise, be aware of it. Once you’re aware of it, it disappears. Eventually conditions are forgotten, and all is naturally unified. This is the essence of zazen."

this is not the same as simply letting thoughts come and go , unattached.

"If you’ve already had a realization, it is like a dragon entering water or a tiger roaming mountains."

Hui-neng said as much. But he wasn't teaching Dragon-Tamers, he was teaching the Dragons themselves. Of what use is a tame Dragon? A Circus? A Museum?

Thnks for this Post, it's refreshing
--- Eric H., also know as Sun Wu Kong, "an authentic genuine human being"
Birth is thus
Death is thus
Verse or no verse
What’s the fuss?

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:11 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:06 pm
...
Or is it? What if you don't know how to go where no thoughts are?

"With body settled, regulate breath and relax abdomen. Do not give rise to any thoughts, good or bad. If a thought does arise, be aware of it. Once you’re aware of it, it disappears. Eventually conditions are forgotten, and all is naturally unified. This is the essence of zazen."

this is not the same as simply letting thoughts come and go , unattached...
I can’t offer anyone else real advice and would encourage everyone to seek personal guidance on zazen from a living qualified competent teacher.

In my personal experience, I would wonder about the difference. When I am fully aware of something it tends to disappear (maybe “I” disappear?). In zazen when I am aware of my wandering thoughts, not trying to suppress or follow them or do anything with or to them (letting them come and go), they tend to disappear or subside.

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by fuki » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:34 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:06 pm

"With body settled, regulate breath and relax abdomen. Do not give rise to any thoughts, good or bad. If a thought does arise, be aware of it. Once you’re aware of it, it disappears. Eventually conditions are forgotten, and all is naturally unified. This is the essence of zazen."

this is not the same as simply letting thoughts come and go , unattached.
Right, but you are not your thoughts, they are momentary and arise due to conditions. So there's also no "you" who (simply) lets thoughts come and go. In this recognition (that whatever appears is identical with emptiness) eventually conditions are forgotten. So there's no use in wandering whether "this is not the same as..." Just stick to the method (or non-method) Zazen is not an activity of mind or something one can "do" Just let everything liberate itself into its own condition.

ps a good observation is recognizing that if you wouldnt have read those words the notion of "this is not the same" wouldn't have arisen. So perfectly clear that thoughts are void of own being and it doesnt matter if they arise or not in zazen. That observation can be made 24/7 off the cushion, when experiential clear conditions liberate themselves without us "doing" anything, (as they do anyway only the human intellect has claimed own being to thoughts/perception etc which is based on mistaken identity, like a "meditator")
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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by jundocohen » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:52 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:11 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:06 pm
...

"With body settled, regulate breath and relax abdomen. Do not give rise to any thoughts, good or bad. If a thought does arise, be aware of it. Once you’re aware of it, it disappears. Eventually conditions are forgotten, and all is naturally unified. This is the essence of zazen."

this is not the same as simply letting thoughts come and go , unattached...
...

In my personal experience, I would wonder about the difference. When I am fully aware of something it tends to disappear (maybe “I” disappear?). In zazen when I am aware of my wandering thoughts, not trying to suppress or follow them or do anything with or to them (letting them come and go), they tend to disappear or subside.
Yes, I would offer that there is a difference between noting and releasing, and "paying no notice" in the first place. In fact, Zazen (in Shikantaza) has aspects of both, because when one notices that they have become particularly distracted and deeply wallowing in thoughts, one may "open the hand of thought," let go, return to breath/posture/open awareness. However, there is no sense of noticing thoughts one by one, as if in some a shooting gallery. It is more that, if one "pays em no nevermind" the thoughts can have no more effect on one than a table in the same room, or a mountain out the window, that one simply does not bother with, think about (don't think about the thoughts!) or even see if taking no notice, and all are without impact. Each is just there, seen but unseen when no attention is paid. A light and silence then shines through both thoughts and the absence of thoughts.

I believe that most modern Shikantaza teachers emphasize the "paying no notice" rather than "noticing and releasing."

Gee, describing this stuff is like nailing spaghetti to the wall sometimes. :lol:

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:29 pm

When I cannot pay random distractions “no never mind” and slip down the rabbit hole of discursive thought, emotion, pain, etc. , or hit a wall I find that noting what is happening without comment (not tracking them down one by one to analyze them or chasing them) usually quickly releases or dissolves them and I can naturally then “pay ‘em no never mind.” Not an original insight, but I find it helpful.

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by jundocohen » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:36 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:29 pm
When I cannot pay random distractions “no never mind” and slip down the rabbit hole of discursive thought, emotion, pain, etc. , or hit a wall I find that noting what is happening without comment (not tracking them down one by one to analyze them or chasing them) usually quickly releases or dissolves them and I can naturally then “pay ‘em no never mind.” Not an original insight, but I find it helpful.
Hi C,

This practice is (in my book) not one size fits all, and if you find something that works for you, do that! In the end, each sitter is his/her own teacher and coach, I feel.

Gassho, J
Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha, an online practice place for folks who cannot commute to a Zen Center due to health, living in remote areas, work or family needs. The focus is Shikantaza 'Just Sitting' Zazen http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by desert_woodworker » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:41 pm

jundocohen wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:52 am
I believe that most modern Shikantaza teachers emphasize the "paying no notice" rather than "noticing and releasing."
I'd agree, and that's been my experience in receiving such teaching.

I think, though, that in some Vipassana practice circles, one hears more the instruction on "noting":

In one "notable" story about this, I heard of a student who went to the Teacher on a long Vipassana retreat, and she said, "I find myself really coming to HATE everybody on this retreat!" And her teacher said, "Okay, NOTE that!"
Gee, describing this stuff is like nailing spaghetti to the wall sometimes. :lol:
I think if you cook it still a little al dente, you can just throw it against the wall, and it will stick.

:namaste: ,

--Joe

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lindama
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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by lindama » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:38 am

Beginners.... run for the door!

if you can, bring a bit of what Jundo says about Dogen. Forget about aspiration for prajna, just relax.

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:41 pm

In one "notable" story about this, I heard of a student who went to the Teacher on a long Vipassana retreat, and she said, "I find myself really coming to HATE everybody on this retreat!" And her teacher said, "Okay, NOTE that!"
:lol:

Reminds me when ppl speak in reference to their ex-spous for instance;
"I don't care about him/her anymore"
Well he/she seems to be on your mind a lot for someone you don't care about.

When something doesn't interest anymore, it doesn't arise, and thus whatever "appears" has no more binding or releasing qualities and is naturally "liberated", so any type of "noting" or "marking" to whatever arises exposes some "interest/fixation" to a degree, the "problem" often is that the "noting" becomes a concept of a "noter" and hence back within the loophole of a fictional character, or "samsaric mind"

"Paying no notice" sounds right instruction wise, I sometimes say; leave it to the body and mind, just rest in a natural "state" (or rest naturally)
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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:34 pm

f.,
fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm
I sometimes say; leave it to the body and mind, just rest in a natural "state" (or rest naturally)
Just to be Contrarian for once, I often say (to myself... ) "just exert in a natural way, then you can really rest afterwards.

I'm sure that in me this is a carry-over tendency from physical Yoga practice, a 50-year habit. And, in general, I find that relaxation needs exertion (or exercise) before it, else sometimes tension persists, even if one does not recognize the fact of it for what it is.

If tension persists, deepest relaxation cannot occur: The subliminal tension sets a "baseline of 'nervousness' " that relaxation cannot get beneath. But exercise (exertion) can use-up the nervous energy, enliven the sensing neurons, and dispel the tension entirely, and then relaxation floods-in like water to fill the space that has been emptied. Simple Hydro-dynamics... . ;)

_/\_ ,

--Joe

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:56 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:34 pm
f.,
fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm
I sometimes say; leave it to the body and mind, just rest in a natural "state" (or rest naturally)
Just to be Contrarian for once, I often say (to myself... ) "just exert in a natural way, then you can really rest afterwards.

I'm sure that in me this is a carry-over tendency from physical Yoga practice, a 50-year habit. And, in general, I find that relaxation needs exertion (or exercise) before it, else sometimes tension persists, even if one does not recognize the fact of it for what it is.

If tension persists, deepest relaxation cannot occur: The subliminal tension sets a "baseline of 'nervousness' " that relaxation cannot get beneath. But exercise (exertion) can use-up the nervous energy, enliven the sensing neurons, and dispel the tension entirely, and then relaxation floods-in like water to fill the space that has been emptied. Simple Hydro-dynamics... . ;)

_/\_ ,

--Joe
"just exert in a natural way, then you can really rest afterwards.
I like that Joe, do not neglect physical practise, or "neglect" it in a natural way ;)
The "exerting/neglecting" part is relative to the individual nervous system/body ofcourse, fixation practise isn't natural Practise.

Nothing contrary I saw, just complementary, gracias.
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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:44 pm

Marcel,
fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:56 pm
The "exerting/neglecting" part is relative to the individual nervous system/body ofcourse, fixation practise isn't natural Practise.
Maybe in the end, yes (but Slackers might use the rumor of this difference as a justification of "Slacking", so, CAUTION!, everyone).

AND, for example... , say, in learning guitar-chords and the "changes" of them, the player must practice a lot of "Forcing the changes", at speed. One gets quicker with this practice, and stronger, and the changes then come to seem natural, and can be done spontaneously. The spontaneity -- the "natural practice" that I think you mention -- is a result of work, not a gift given by the Universe for one's procrastination and wishful-thinking. In other words, Miracles almost never happen.

Well, that's guitar-playing. But I think the same comes to be found to be true in physical practice, in Yoga, say, and in meditation of any kind. "Opportunity" exists for those who show up, and ..."God helps those who help themselves". In order to find and to liberate the Natural, one needs at first an artifice (if not always).

Well, 'preaching to the Choir', here, I'm sure!

Our American Inventor, "the Genius of Menlo Park (New Jersey)", said:

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed
in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas A. Edison
Nothing contrary I saw, just complementary, gracias.
Thank you!

--Joe

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by fuki » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:10 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:44 pm

AND, for example... , say, in learning guitar-chords and the "changes" of them, the player must practice a lot of "Forcing the changes", at speed. One gets quicker with this practice, and stronger, and the changes then come to seem natural, and can be done spontaneously. The spontaneity -- the "natural practice" that I think you mention -- is a result of work, not a gift given by the Universe for one's procrastination and wishful-thinking. In other words, Miracles almost never happen.

Well, that's guitar-playing. But I think the same comes to be found to be true in physical practice, in Yoga, say, and in meditation of any kind. "Opportunity" exists for those who show up, and ..."God helps those who help themselves". In order to find and to liberate the Natural, one needs at first an artifice (if not always).
Agreed Joe, thanks for mentioning it.

Reminds me of Sri Niz.
"When effort is needed, effort will appear. When effortlessness becomes essential, it will assert itself. You need not push life about. Just flow with it and give yourself completely to the task of the present moment...”

But yes ofcourse "slackers" can use any quote for convenient self-assertion (slacking) ofcourse. "Discipline builds character" I'd agree with too. Though I'd say for succes/results (hi Jundo) ; right motivation is key, earnestness, preserverance. Is "right effort" in Buddhism? I forgot the story of "right effort" again, sorry.
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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by desert_woodworker » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:25 pm

f.,
fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:10 pm
Is "right effort" in Buddhism? I forgot the story of "right effort" again, sorry.
Yes, if you ask the Buddha.

(If you ask some of his "later incarnations", though, ...well ...you might get some equivocation! ). :lol:

--Joe

ps "Virya" in Skt. is given as the 6th of the Eight steps of the Eightfold Path, and can translate as "Right Effort"; "Correct Effort". It's also given to be a proper and fitting kind of "energy", "diligence", "enthusiasm", and impetus for engaging in wholesome activities; and, Virya acts to influence a practitioner to accomplish wholesome or virtuous actions. Pretty important... .

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Advice and Comments

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:44 pm

Some advice and comments on the practice of Zen Buddhism that don’t fit elsewhere posted here.

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Re: Zazen Manual

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:24 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:25 pm
f.,
fuki wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:10 pm
Is "right effort" in Buddhism? I forgot the story of "right effort" again, sorry.
Yes, if you ask the Buddha.

(If you ask some of his "later incarnations", though, ...well ...you might get some equivocation! ). :lol:

--Joe

ps "Virya" in Skt. is given as the 6th of the Eight steps of the Eightfold Path, and can translate as "Right Effort"; "Correct Effort". It's also given to be a proper and fitting kind of "energy", "diligence", "enthusiasm", and impetus for engaging in wholesome activities; and, Virya acts to influence a practitioner to accomplish wholesome or virtuous actions. Pretty important... .
Thanks Joe,
"Virya" not really "agree" as a mental factor;

The Abhidharma-samuccaya states:

What is virya? It is the mind intent on being ever active, devoted, unshaken, not turning back and being indefatigable. It perfects and realizes what is conducive to the positive.[9]

In the context of the Mahayana Abhidharma, virya is commonly translated as diligence.

It might be constructed as a mental factor when "virya" manifests but I wouldn't say it is a mental factor. But I might be nitpicking not sure about the description of "the mind intent" and "ever active" Anyways now I know what virya means should that knowledge ever be needed in relation.
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Re: Advice and Comments

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:39 pm

Marcel, you're ahead of me in analyzing "Virya" down to the nubs in those various writings, but I only mention that it is given as a step or asset in the Eightfold Path.

If it can be mustered within one's practice, it is evidently to the good, since Buddha taught it as fully 12.5-percent of the "Path". I don't know if it's a "mental factor", but if it's properly aroused and applied in Practice, it may conduce toward awakening, or, shall we say, remaining in alignment with the Tao, by supporting the other steps (and vice versa).

--Joe

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Re: Advice and Comments

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:45 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:39 pm
Marcel, you're ahead of me in analyzing "Virya" down to the nubs in those various writings, but I only mention that it is given as a step or asset in the Eightfold Path.

If it can be mustered within one's practice, it is evidently to the good, since Buddha taught it as fully 12.5-percent of the "Path". I don't know if it's a "mental factor", but if it's properly aroused and applied in Practice, it may conduce toward awakening, or, shall we say, remaining in alignment with the Tao.

--Joe
Thanks Joe, normally not that "analytical" but you move me in unknown ways more often :)

Remaining in alignment with the Tao, perfect.
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Re: Advice and Comments

Post by desert_woodworker » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:51 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:45 pm
Thanks Joe, normally not that "analytical" but you move me in unknown ways more often :)
I'll try to be more careful. :lol: --Joe

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Re: Advice and Comments

Post by fuki » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Thanks :lol:
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