Never Surrender!

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

Moderator: Spiritual Do-gooder

User avatar
boda
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:27 am

Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:43 pm

Never surrender to the teacher. Surrendering to a spiritual teacher is a mistake, says Brad Warner. He also says that in Zen there’s never been a tradition of guru worship where you surrender your will. If the teacher ever does something you’re not comfortable with you should just walk away.

He also says that Zen teachers are not equipped to deal with students who may be predisposed to overly attaching to their teacher. Folks who may have psychological issues who’re looking for a father figure or whatever.

Anyone disagree with this? Is there any value in surrender?


User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:58 pm

No, no disagreement.

Zen practice with teacher and sangha does not involve surrender. It's just not an issue.

We DO take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha (IF we do... ), but that is not surrender at all: it is faith, and appreciation (ultimately, gratitude).

Most people who persist in and persist with Zen Buddhist practice are actually quite brave, and not the surrendering type.

But neither are they incorrigible.

:namaste:, All,

--Joe

User avatar
boda
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:27 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:02 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:58 pm
No, no disagreement.

Zen practice with teacher and sangha does not involve surrender. It's just not an issue.

We DO take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha (IF we do... ), but that is not surrender at all: it is faith, and appreciation (ultimately, gratitude).

Most people who persist in and persist with Zen Buddhist practice are actually quite brave, and not the surrendering type.

But neither are they incorrigible.

:namaste:, All,

--Joe
Of course it's an issue. Would you like me to point out various cases of abuse?

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:13 pm

boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:02 pm
Of course it's an issue. Would you like me to point out various cases of abuse?
It's not an issue.

--Joe

User avatar
boda
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:27 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:24 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:13 pm
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:02 pm
Of course it's an issue. Would you like me to point out various cases of abuse?
It's not an issue.

--Joe
If you're trying to say that it's not an issue for you, sure. Good for you. :)

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:58 pm

b.,
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:24 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:13 pm
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:02 pm
Of course it's an issue. Would you like me to point out various cases of abuse?
It's not an issue.
If you're trying to say that it's not an issue for you, sure. Good for you. :)
It's not an issue. Not a part of the Zen Buddhist Way.

Now, in a certain branch of Hindu religious practice, where faith in a guru and devotion to a guru is a part of the way, surrender is rumored to be an issue, and it is expected and encouraged.

In our way, it is not an issue.

You are conflating "abuse" (as you called it) with surrender.

Unless it's reckless muckraking, I'd say that such conflations and confusions occur for definite reasons: all things have their causes and conditions. I'd be curious about what's happening in your life for you to make such a confusion here now.

rgds,

--Joe
Last edited by desert_woodworker on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:59 pm

I surrendered to my original teacher, a Taoist Master, by choice. Not by demand or request. I got some flack for mentioning that on Dharmawheel. I was young, naive....and lucky. And in retrospect, I have no regrets.

After 14 years she sent me away with the words "I'm not looking for dogs!" :lol:

Within the context of Zen, I agree with Brad & Joe. Tibetan Guru Yoga, for example, is more of a grey area. And obviously not without problems.

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:05 pm

L,
Larry wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:59 pm
After 14 years she sent me away with the words "I'm not looking for dogs!" :lol:
I'm a dragon-year person, m'self. :hatsoff: ;)

--Joe

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:07 pm

I'm a monkey. But you would never guess from my impeccable online behaviour :lol:

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:13 pm

Larry,
Larry wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:07 pm
I'm a monkey. But you would never guess from my impeccable online behaviour :lol:
Right!: we recognize you now. My Chinese restaurant paper place-mat says:

"Monkey: They are believed to be lively and active, clever and quick-witted. They like to compete with others.
At the same time, they have good social skills and can get along well with others in a short time. They are
considerate but not willing to be controlled. They are fond of pursuing new things."

Long life!, :)

and Long life, All,

--Joe

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:20 pm

Hail!

User avatar
boda
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:27 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:58 pm
b.,
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:24 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:13 pm
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:02 pm
Of course it's an issue. Would you like me to point out various cases of abuse?
It's not an issue.
If you're trying to say that it's not an issue for you, sure. Good for you. :)
It's not an issue. Not a part of the Zen Buddhist Way.
Brad says it's not traditional Zen also, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue. Maybe you should watch the video.
You are conflating "abuse" (as you called it) with surrender.
Uh, no. The implication is that guru worship (yes yes, not traditional Zen) makes abuse a possibility. Power corrupts and all that jazz. Get it now?
Unless it's reckless muckraking, I'd say that such conflations and confusions occur for definite reasons: all things have their causes and conditions. I'd be curious about what's happening in your life for you to make such a confusion here now.
Lol, this is not about me, dear Desert Woodworker. Try staying with the topic, please.

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:07 pm

boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm
Maybe you should watch the video.
13 minutes! You sadist :lol:

And that attempted guitar playing at the beginning is even more irritating than anyone on Zen Space :lol:

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:11 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:13 pm
My Chinese restaurant paper place-mat
What does it say about dragons?

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:13 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:11 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:13 pm
My Chinese restaurant paper place-mat
What does it say about dragons?
Er-r, too modest here for me to reveal. --Joe

User avatar
boda
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:27 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:23 pm

Larry wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:07 pm
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm
Maybe you should watch the video.
13 minutes! You sadist :lol:

And that attempted guitar playing at the beginning is even more irritating than anyone on Zen Space :lol:
The beauty of punk is that you don't have to play good.

User avatar
Larry
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by Larry » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:31 pm

I'll have you know you're talking to a man who, in 1977, interviewed, for the BBC, The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Stranglers, The Damned, Elvis Costello & Ian Dury plus many others.

And Brad still sounds like crap :lol:

If the mods are thinking of deleting half the posts in this thread do you think we should suggest reallocating to the lounge? Or would that dilute Brad's marketing :D

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:36 pm

boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm
Lol, this is not about me, dear Desert Woodworker. Try staying with the topic, please.
That's what muckrakers all say. :lol:

"Surrender" is not an issue in Zen Buddhist practice with teacher and sangha. Not part of the way of practice. Maybe in Hinduism.

--Joe

User avatar
boda
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:27 am

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by boda » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:39 pm

desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:36 pm
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm
Lol, this is not about me, dear Desert Woodworker. Try staying with the topic, please.
That's what muckrakers all say. :lol:
Your trolling skills are worse than Brads musicality. :lol:

User avatar
desert_woodworker
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:20 am
Location: Southern Arizona desert, USA

Re: Never Surrender!

Post by desert_woodworker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:43 pm

boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:39 pm
desert_woodworker wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:36 pm
boda wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:53 pm
Lol, this is not about me, dear Desert Woodworker. Try staying with the topic, please.
That's what muckrakers all say. :lol:
Your trolling skills are worse than Brads musicality. :lol:
Sounds like a positive to me; tnx. But I can't match your muckraking.

--Joe

ps (I was a surf fisherman; never did any trolling from a boat).


from_the_surf_Winter.jpg
from_the_surf_Winter.jpg (13.18 KiB) Viewed 480 times

Post Reply