please reinstate jundo

Discussion of Zen Buddhism, Soto Zen, Rinzai Zen, Chan, Seon and Thien.

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guo gu
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please reinstate jundo

Post by guo gu » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:31 am

moderators,
i go away for a couple of months, busying with my center's development and a surgery, and find that jundo was asked to leave! not sure what happened, but pls consider reinstating him.
sure, he can be confrontational and opinionated but that's his passion for soto zen. just accept that it's his love... which has benefited ppl. issues of doctrine are intrinsically divisive; views always change anyway. buddhadharma changes, let alone views. also, there's value in listening to and sharing alternative views. this is what moves buddhadharma forward.
whatever we cannot let go is our own attachment, our own obstruction. therein lies the self.
i'm sure jundo doesn't wish to leave. he spends a lot of time on this forum and the internet. it's very meaningful to him. to cut him off from this forum would be really hurtful to him. so pls be kind. if we ask him to come back, i hope he will.
pls consider reinstating him.
:bow2:
iag,
guo gu

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Larry
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Larry » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:43 am

Really good to see you again Guo Gu. We're suffering a teacher famine. Maybe you can strike a deal with the mods. You'll come back if Jundo can come back :D

:bow2:

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guo gu
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by guo gu » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:59 am

hi larry,
famine? you guys are doing fine. just being here, sharing, bantering, debating--it's all good!
i emailed daniel already.
i never "left." i just don't post all the time bcuz my time on the internet is very limited. plus had some health issues.
can't guarantee i will post more.... but i'm around.
be well,
guo gu

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Georgei
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Georgei » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:23 am

guo gu wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:31 am
moderators,
i go away for a couple of months, busying with my center's development and a surgery, and find that jundo was asked to leave! not sure what happened, but pls consider reinstating him.
sure, he can be confrontational and opinionated but that's his passion for soto zen. just accept that it's his love... which has benefited ppl. issues of doctrine are intrinsically divisive; views always change anyway. buddhadharma changes, let alone views. also, there's value in listening to and sharing alternative views. this is what moves buddhadharma forward.
whatever we cannot let go is our own attachment, our own obstruction. therein lies the self.
i'm sure jundo doesn't wish to leave. he spends a lot of time on this forum and the internet. it's very meaningful to him. to cut him off from this forum would be really hurtful to him. so pls be kind. if we ask him to come back, i hope he will.
pls consider reinstating him.
:bow2:
iag,
guo gu
Thank you for posting this guo gu..

Being brand new to Buddhism, but more importantly ( regarding this topic ) to this forum I was reluctant to comment...

But... Having created two online community forums, I do have good experience with "moderating" discussions and smoothing over conflicting personality's ..

So will simply chime in and comment that in eight years of running online community forums, I have only banned two members. Online community forums are "public" social media venues.. IMHO it is a poor decision to ban and or edit/censor members or their comments within a public forum.

If we do not agree with, or are agitated with a members comments or personality, simply do not reply or participate within that particular discussion.

After reading some of Jundo's comments here and elsewhere online, to be honest it is quite perplexing why he was banned... As guo gu points out, "there is value in listening to and sharing alternative views." Being "confrontational and opinionated" is just one of the many characteristics that make us individually unique as human beings.. So long as we are willing to be held accountable for our words within any public setting via a continued constructive discussion as a result of those words, then no harm, no foul.. I am much more interested in learning from and hearing what a member has to offer and contribute than necessarily how their personality comes through the keyboard..

Just my two cents, and forgive this new member for jumping into what appears a sensitive topic within a forum I have just joined..
Last edited by Georgei on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Larry
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Larry » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:35 am

The firing squad has been prepared :lol:

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Dan74
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Dan74 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:26 pm

In the light of this turn of events, I am stepping down immediately from any functioning capacity and stand ready to hand over the forum to a new owner. We have just disciplined members for the very thing Guo Gu is doing and the choice is either to discipline one of the most respected members of the forum or be a hypocrite.

The remainder of the team will have to decide whether to reinstate Jundo or how else to deal with Guo Gu's complaint. At least they are untainted by the decision to suspend Jundo, so they are free to do as they please. I will also cease any active participation.


For what it's worth, I think the team of Meido, Caodemarte and clyde is as good as they get and certainly don't require me as an admin over them. If they can't steer the forum out of this situation, no one can.


I am sorry for all the mistakes I've made and sincerely ask for forgiveness from all members past and present for all the upset and harm I've caused.


:bow2: :bow2: :bow2:

Best way to contact me is on galton.watson@gmail.com.

_/|\_

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Larry
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Larry » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:14 pm

Thanks Dan for all your hard work. Without you, the forum wouldn't be thriving in the way that it is.

:bow2:

Caodemarte
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:39 pm

I became a member of this forum because I wanted to give and receive mutual support for the practice and study of Zen Buddhism. I was asked to come in as a moderator by Dan74. He asked because I expressed concern about the forum rapidly becoming as unreadable as other forums that have collapsed. I trapped myself by complaining! It is not an enjoyable job (“degrading” and “tedious” come to mind as better descriptors).

Dan74 did not always agree with me or I with him, but I was always confident that he was doing his best to create a useful forum for us all. If he indeed is leaving it is only fair that a new owner, if any, establish new policies. I, too, will move on.

narhwal90
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by narhwal90 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:33 pm

I have some sympathy for dan74 on this- a poster like Jundo can be tricky business. I moderate a forum elsewhere, there are valuable members who sometimes start spouting off- or a controversial subject comes up and lots of folks dive right in and the same old wretched arguments quickly arise. SOmetimes private message warnings to the poster(s) don't work, or work for a while and then its back to the races. In such cases the moderator is in a lose-lose situation.

Personally, I thought banning Jundo was a bit hasty OTOH I've pre-emptively taken similar action and ended up in a mess too so I get it, and I've let stuff go that probably shouldn't have been. Being a moderator means taking your beatings as they come.

I appreciate zen1's close moderation, sometimes it seems a bit too close OTOH I tend to consider with greater care before posting here.

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lindama
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by lindama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:49 pm

guo gu wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:31 am
moderators,
i go away for a couple of months, busying with my center's development and a surgery, and find that jundo was asked to leave! not sure what happened, but pls consider reinstating him.
sure, he can be confrontational and opinionated but that's his passion for soto zen. just accept that it's his love... which has benefited ppl. issues of doctrine are intrinsically divisive; views always change anyway. buddhadharma changes, let alone views. also, there's value in listening to and sharing alternative views. this is what moves buddhadharma forward.
whatever we cannot let go is our own attachment, our own obstruction. therein lies the self.
i'm sure jundo doesn't wish to leave. he spends a lot of time on this forum and the internet. it's very meaningful to him. to cut him off from this forum would be really hurtful to him. so pls be kind. if we ask him to come back, i hope he will.
pls consider reinstating him.
:bow2:
iag,
guo gu
Thank you Guo Gu for starting this discussion... it is needed. Be well :115:

Georgei makes some good points which offer room for growth. We can all learn.

As far as I can see, this forum has tried to avoid past mistakes, perceived and real. Life isn't about avoiding mistakes... assuming we know what they are, as if fixed in history. The standard for a serious place for zen practice has it's own benefits and consequences, as we have seen. It is worthy of reflection. I'd say that zen is biggg enough to include anything. As our Maestro often says... "you make, you get" .... I'd add, it's on-going, only helf fermented. So far, there has been action and re-action all the way down.... gotta love it.

Dan:

You are right, Guo Go can't be banned.... that was my first thought... WOW, what will happen now. :P It's a lesson we can all learn from. ...not that Guo Go did anything others might not have thought of ... he shines a light on the ambiguity of our dilemma.

Thank you for your integrity on this point. BUT, I'd say it does not mean that you have to leave... you've stood up to the dilemma. I encourage you to stick around in your current capacity.... we all learn. Mistakes are made. Forgive me for saying that you have the most to gain by staying. I think you do.... AND, let's remember that this is only one tree in your forest.... you bring many qualities that teach and balance as well as a good sense of zen in everyday life.

linda

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KeithA
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by KeithA » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:10 pm

Sigh...all Jundo Cohen does is spread aggravation and confrintation wherever he goes. And here we are, yet again. I have no animosity towards him, but I am of the opinion that he is a false teacher.

Ah well, perhaps Zen Buddhism just wasn't meant to have a forum.

Be well everyone, I'm out.

Good luck and thanks for practing,

Keith
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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lindama
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by lindama » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:13 pm

think about this... nobody is obligated to respond. sigh

has anyone noticed the similarity to our (in the US) current state of politics and news.... why, it's hard to say who is more fake. patterns run deep and silent.... wonderful to bring them above water into the light! :110:

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Meido
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Re: please reinstate jundo

Post by Meido » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:18 pm

Folks, regardless of where you stand, the TOS (as oft-mentioned these days) requires comments/suggestions RE mod actions to be done by PM rather than in the forum. I believe staff welcomes everyone's thoughts, and is certainly willing to consider all points of view. I know that is the case for myself.

But a topic like this is not the place to hash out, litigate, or otherwise decide things. Part of the reason for that common forum rule is to protect members. For example, in this case it is unfair to talk about a member who is unable to respond.

Please move to PM if you feel strongly enough about this (or any) forum issue to do so.
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Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
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